The Universal Question

[Savagegxp]

As a philosopher (you get to call yourself that after you earn a degree in the field apparently) I often encounter questions that are both thought provoking and trivial at the same time. Thought provoking in that you think of something in a light you would normally never have thought of it in, and trivial for the same reason. These questions don't have pragmatic answers, and the answers are usually never taken past the theoretical. My favorite question of these is the existence of Free Will. I for one do not believe that free will exists and I will present you with my argument in a short and concise logical argument.

I am really interested in knowing what you all think about free will and whether or not you believe that it exists.

It is important first to establish an understanding of what free will is. I for one prefer the modern Christian interpretation of the idea. Free will is the ability all humans have to make decisions that affect their fates directly. These decisions are not predetermined, and the probability of selecting any possible action is equal for all possible actions, ie it is not possible for me to decide to defy gravity, but I can decide to make myself a sandwich or not with equal probability toward either one.

The counter argument for free will is often summarized as determinism. I'll umbrella all of these stances into one cogent idea so that this post doesn't take several pages (really it could). Determinism is a state in which all decisions and fate altering courses of actions are predetermined. The idea I had earlier about making a sandwich or not has already been determined for me, even if in my mind I think I can make the choice myself. The universe has decided for me that I will go hungry and complete this forum post instead.

My theory on free will is that Free Will cannot exist by its own exist makes it impossible for such a thing to be the case. To clarify, if we as humans have the idea of free will and free will exists, then we must have come to the conclusion of our own volition. But if Free Will is the governing law of the universe then we could not have had an equal probability choice in discovering it because that is all there is. It is far more probable that an idea of free will is created by the illusion that determinism gives us.

For those of you who believe in a divine being who gave all humans free will I have this to say: If you are forced to have free will then it is not free will at all since you didn't consciously make the decision to have it. The existence of free will has been determined, and is therefore null within its own definition.

So what do you all think? Free Will? No Free Will? Am I an idiot? I'm really curious about what you all have to say.

You might be wondering why this fits into creative writing, and to me I think it does because philosophical discussion on metaphysical topics is nothing if not creative. It stretches your brain and makes you consider the impossible.

[silversleek]

personally, i like to comprimise on this idea in that humanity as a whole is predestined for something, however individual action is controlled by our free will and will dictate at what pace we reach this "destiny", and what methods will be used to achieve that destiny. As to what that destiny is, i could only guess a form of pseudo-godhood. (and that's just in the short term, who can possibly conceive what happens beyond that point?)

[THExSPIDERMAN]

Lol I have free will. If I have a choice between cake and pie and I weigh the options and choose cake, I did that of my own free will. Not because there's an invisible creature making my decisions for me.

[Nicholas Sapien]

I believe in God

That is all

[Mythonian]

Free will is the ability all humans have to make decisions that affect their fates directly. These decisions are not predetermined, and the probability of selecting any possible action is equal for all possible actions

That is a gross oversimplification and misinterpretation of free will. It has nothing to do with probability; free will is the fact that individuals make decisions and come to conclusions based only upon their whim. There is nowhere close to "an equal probability for each action," as this implies that some random number generator is used to determine outcomes, when in fact the whim of someone can be easily predictable and not random whatsoever, but even this predictability has nothing to do with it being predetermined, since that decision they made was on the whim of the moment, not the whim at the beginning of the universe.


My theory on free will is that Free Will cannot exist by its own exist makes it impossible for such a thing to be the case. To clarify, if we as humans have the idea of free will and free will exists, then we must have come to the conclusion of our own volition. But if Free Will is the governing law of the universe then we could not have had an equal probability choice in discovering it because that is all there is. It is far more probable that an idea of free will is created by the illusion that determinism gives us.
Where do you come up with the idea that we had an equal probability choice in discovering free will in the first place? That seems baseless, since there's little evidence to support that idea. Free will is largely not discovered by people, and is simply a concept developed by philosophers to describe the phenomenon that were observed. There wasn't anything along the lines of "equal probabilities," and in fact

Determinism is rather illogical by all accounts of science. The Pauli Exclusion Principle and Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle pretty much seal the deal for me. All evidence in existence that can be observed within the universe appear to unilaterally support free will.


For those of you who believe in a divine being who gave all humans free will I have this to say: If you are forced to have free will then it is not free will at all since you didn't consciously make the decision to have it. The existence of free will has been determined, and is therefore null within its own definition.

Also a false interpretation. Free will cannot even be thought of as "forced" or even "given" to us by God, as that implies it does not exist separately. Free will is pervasive in the universe and is part of the very fabric of reality, as I previously described. Whether a God created the universe with that feature included is irrelevant of the debate, since it still exists nonetheless.

[Savagegxp]

@ Silversleek

Good call. I'm glad that you mentioned the possibility of both existing at the same time. I used to agree with that idea as it seems to employ the best of both theories, but now I'm not so sure such a complicated thing could be the case. I rely mostly on Ockham's Razor for the justification of why the complicated theory is less likely than one prevailing over another, but good points none the less.

@ Thexspiderman

And how do you know that the cake is not a lie? Just kidding, but what proof do you have that you could ever really have selected between either one since you never experience the choice you didn't make?

@ Nicholas Sapien

Simple but effective. Free Will God or a God that has made a destiny for you?

@ Mythonian

I'm very happy to see some deep debate here, and you are correct, I did simplify my definition of Free Will in order to make it more compact and understandable for people who have never encountered the topic. I don't want to win an argument simply because I used terms the other party didn't understand.

I do see Free Will as a probabilistic endeavor. If the options don't have an equal chance of being selected than I can hardly classify that state of existence as true Free Will.

I am a little confused in your line of reasoning when you say that the whim of an individual is easily predictable and yet you disagree so vehemently with determinism. Doesn't determinism support the idea that the whim of individuals is predictable since there are no other outcomes than the one end result?

I don't see the last point as a false interoperation necessarily given the viewpoint from which I am arguing. Some people really do feel like Free Will exists only through their God. It is to these people that I say how can it be free will if it was given to you by such a being, and there was no other option? I do like the idea that Free Will is part of the fabric of the universe, and your scientific resources do seem to speak volumes on the matter. But I'm not sure that science is really enough to cut to the heart of a metaphysical problem like free will.

All good points though.

[Jam Cliché]

I believe in free will, only in the sense that an ant as free will. Its individual decisions are guiding by a more simplistic motivation than ours, but it does make decisions. It's just that its decisions barely have any effect on even a small space in my front lawn.

In the same sense, we can do many things of our own free will, but it means little in the grand scheme of the universe. Whether or not you decided to eat that sandwich does not change the fact that there is a black hole in the center of our galaxy that may eventually swallow us all. A hundred billion years from now, the actions performed by the giant celestial bodies that make up our universe will be the same regardless of what we do now or until our extinction.

One could argue that we could eventually gain the technology to effect changes in our own galaxy, or even make extragalactic effects, but we could not change the universe.

Free will is not a lie, but simply not very important, except to us.

[Savagegxp]

@ Jam Cliche

I like that approach. Like the Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy viewpoint in which knowing how infinitesimal your decisions are in the grand scheme of things is in fact enough to make you regret your existence. I agree with you that sentient beings are probably the only ones something like Free Will could ever have any meaning for, in the end we are probably better off focusing on other things. Nevertheless I find it to be an interesting topic of discussion.

[Mythonian]

@ Mythonian

I'm very happy to see some deep debate here, and you are correct, I did simplify my definition of Free Will in order to make it more compact and understandable for people who have never encountered the topic. I don't want to win an argument simply because I used terms the other party didn't understand.

I do see Free Will as a probabilistic endeavor. If the options don't have an equal chance of being selected than I can hardly classify that state of existence as true Free Will.

I am a little confused in your line of reasoning when you say that the whim of an individual is easily predictable and yet you disagree so vehemently with determinism. Doesn't determinism support the idea that the whim of individuals is predictable since there are no other outcomes than the one end result?

I don't see the last point as a false interoperation necessarily given the viewpoint from which I am arguing. Some people really do feel like Free Will exists only through their God. It is to these people that I say how can it be free will if it was given to you by such a being, and there was no other option? I do like the idea that Free Will is part of the fabric of the universe, and your scientific resources do seem to speak volumes on the matter. But I'm not sure that science is really enough to cut to the heart of a metaphysical problem like free will.

All good points though.
I don't think free will is truly metaphysical in the first place, is part of my argument. Philosopher's were the ones who grouped it there, but I think that "metaphysics" in the first place is simply an oversimplification of reality.

Here's an example of what I meant by predictable yet not predetermined: We're playing a strategy game. I make a series of moves and see your responses. You get into a tough situation and have to choose a move to make. I've played with you before and know your tendencies, so I guess you will make one move. This is me predicting your decision which you will make using free will. Whether I am right or not is uncertain until you make your decision (Schrödinger's cat situation, sort of). This predictability is present irrespective of determinism or free will. In my previous post I meant to imply that I was referring to practical predictions like these, not predicting the live of an individual or something crazy.

In 100% of all situations in which you make a decision, the probability you will make a specific decision is 100%. Your whim in the situation determines your outcome, and your whim is determined by your environment (both internal state and external stimuli). Scientifically, your environment is directly and irrefutably affected by the principles of Pauli and Heisenberg, thereby effectively proving (at least semantically) the existence of free will.

Randomness and unpredictability at the quantum level builds our universe. We exist in this universe and observe the super-macro-scale of these uncertainties, which our brain, still affected by them, receives stimuli by other bits of matter which is affected by them, and then our synapses using the senses along with stored memories and thought-patterns to develop a preferred reaction and act accordingly.

If I am missing something, please point out the flaw in my thought process.

You say you use Ockham's Razor to support your idea, but have you looked at what it would require for something to be determined in reality? For all things to happen in a preplanned method with static causation is infinitely more complex than using the observable scientific phenomena to attribute free will to the synaptic discharging in our brains as we consider our situation and make a judgment based off our whims.

[Jam Cliché]

@ Jam Cliche

I like that approach. Like the Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy viewpoint in which knowing how infinitesimal your decisions are in the grand scheme of things is in fact enough to make you regret your existence. I agree with you that sentient beings are probably the only ones something like Free Will could ever have any meaning for, in the end we are probably better off focusing on other things. Nevertheless I find it to be an interesting topic of discussion.

Oh, I find it interesting as well. I wouldn't say it gives me any negative feelings to know that the universe is unaffected, but it is my viewpoint. I do not believe that all actions are predestined, but instead that our decisions do not make an effect on the final outcome of the universe. In other words, choice A and choice B can both always happen, without predetermination, BUT result A and result B all lead to conclusion C, the distant conclusion that occurs eons from now, whenever that is.

[Nicholas Sapien]

@ Nicholas Sapien

Simple but effective. Free Will God or a God that has made a destiny for you?


Both

[JamiDJ]

neither