Replace Hill 30 with Dominion Lockdown gametype.

[bl4yze]

Since Hill is completely broken in Halo 4, why not replace it with a gametype you can't completely glitch.

If you didn't know, Hill is glitched because if you enter the hill at the same time as a teammate, you'll get double the points. Obviously I don't mean like in Occupation in which you're supposed to get more points for more people in the hill, but a glitch that isn't supposed to be in the game.

Not making excuses as REDD won last war, but the last Hill 30 game that VbD played the hill timer went from something like 320 to 347 in 5 seconds. I'm in no way saying BLUE intentionally pushed the hill at the same time to force the glitch, but had that of been the deciding game, and that was the deciding factor (they gained the lead with that push), I wouldn't want to see clinch games end to a hill glitch.

If you haven't played the Lockdown gametype in Matchmaking, it plays very similar to Hill 30, but uses a single Dominion base in the center of the map, as opposed to the single hill.

We could edit the settings to match Hill 30 variants as close as possible, for instance; contesting the hill (no points for either team), could be matched by having a very quick arm time. Resupply time could be very low (10 seconds or so, with 10 points per 10 seconds) etc etc. I'm not too familiar with the Dominion gametypes and what is editable, but I do know that the FC dominion is pretty customized, so I don't see any reason to not at least try this gametype during peacetime.


btw, this is a direct jab at Blackhawk, who actually invented Hill 30 ;)

[Guzzie]

Hill 30 in H4 is very disappointing for me. It is nothing like it was in H3 or Reach. If there is a way to make it play like how it was meant to be played, I am all for it.

[Breezy]

I agree, but no Lockdown on Exile. Have you ever played Lockdown on Exile, dude the RED side has the better advantage because their are fusion coils beside Blue stairs. By the time 4 or 5 come up there, killtacular here i come.

[bl4yze]

I agree, but no Lockdown on Exile. Have you ever played Lockdown on Exile, dude the RED side has the better advantage because their are fusion coils beside Blue stairs. By the time 4 or 5 come up there, killtacular here i come.

Everything is editable in forge. Myth did a great job of balancing Settler, and a few non-symmetrical maps. Exile can be edited to a point in which each side would have a fair fight. Alternatively the Lockdown point could be put under the balcony thing where matchmaking B Dominion point is, that way there isn't such a choke point on either side.

[Maxdoggy]

I'm all for trying this out.

And now I know about the Hill 30 glitch, lol. I just thought Fuzzballz put on the wrong gametype.

[Jam Cliché]

The Forge settings are remarkably limited in this endeavor, but still effective enough to get a working Hill 30 game.

For one, the terminal cannot have its radius increased for arming. The radius only affects other Dominion objects being tied to a terminal.
The other issue is the arm time is impossible to change.

Otherwise, we're good to go.

I suggest having a short Conversion time (so that you can quickly stop the opponents' point gain) but a relatively long fortification time, and set it to where you don't begin gaining points until the base is fortified. This way, if during a game teams go back and forth converting the Hill very often, there is relatively little change in score, and instead to really pull away you must hold for a long time.

Conversion 10 and Fortification 20 sounds good to me, for a total of 30 that you must hold the Hill before you start gaining points.

The above settings also solve the problem I personally see in the Matchmaking version, where Converting takes so long that it is easy to stop, especially with everyone's attention on one place.

[Yehsus]

No fortifications, no turrets, have it drop an OS for every 3 minutes controlled or something.

Or keep it as plain as it was in H2.

[Spartanbh]

Even though Hill 30 is actually Blackhawks creation, it's still my baby, and I've voiced many times over and over again that it should be a Dominion gametype in H4. I absolutely despise it as a KOTH gametype. My only concern with the Dominion gametype is that whoever controls the zone, don't they spawn inside of it? Or are there ways of getting around it?

And I agree with Yehsus in keeping it as simple as possible. No turrets, barriers, vehicles, etc spawning in the hill (aside from possibly OS or something).

[Relapsive]

No you dont spawn in side of it.

[VerbotenDonkey]

Can you do Dominion on all Maps though?

[Deathhawk]

Hmm. That's disappointing to hear that Hill 30 isn't working the same :/

That gametype is awesome.

[XxClearSh0txX]

Can you do Dominion on all Maps though?No, you can't. Dominion doesn't work on smaller default maps like Haven and Adrift, because there are no Dominion forge objects available on those maps. I tried to make a Dominion Hill 30 gametype and ran into this problem. It'll work on Forge Island-type maps though.

[VerbotenDonkey]

No, you can't. Dominion doesn't work on smaller default maps like Haven and Adrift, because there are no Dominion forge objects available on those maps. I tried to make a Dominion Hill 30 gametype and ran into this problem. It'll work on Forge Island-type maps though.

That was my thought too. Hill 30 needs to be available for all maps though.

[Dos Eggys]

That was my thought too. Hill 30 needs to be available for all maps though.
Does it really need to be available on every map?

[Zeta Crossfire]

If hill 30 is broken then, and a proper replacement can't be found I say we should not use it for next war.

[Spartanbh]

Does it really need to be available on every map?

He brings up a good point...just like it's difficult playing CTF on some maps because of sheer symmetric difficulties. Hill 30 was created to cater to large, epic battles that utilize vehicle control and such....would it really damage the wars that must if we didn't have it on certain small maps that it would've probably played like shit on anyways?

[UNLUCKY NUM13ER]

If we can make up a new gametype for smaller games (like Executive) to even out the game modes I see no problem with making Hill 30/ Lockdown a bigger team game mode.

[VerbotenDonkey]

He brings up a good point...just like it's difficult playing CTF on some maps because of sheer symmetric difficulties. Hill 30 was created to cater to large, epic battles that utilize vehicle control and such....would it really damage the wars that must if we didn't have it on certain small maps that it would've probably played like shit on anyways?

Dominion is our large-scale gametype. Executive is our small-scale only gametype. There would need to be another small-scale only map, or maybe more large maps to balance it out, especially if you need a certain amount of wins per gametype, it would be unfair if we had more large-maps only gametypes.

Hill 30 is just as epic on a 4v4.

[Jam Cliché]

He brings up a good point...just like it's difficult playing CTF on some maps because of sheer symmetric difficulties. Hill 30 was created to cater to large, epic battles that utilize vehicle control and such....would it really damage the wars that must if we didn't have it on certain small maps that it would've probably played like shit on anyways?

I suggested a topic like this before when I first came to the Forge Department. I suggested we try to eliminate one or two of our list of gametypes from every map, such that only the best 5 playable gametypes on any map are actually played.

As an alternative, I suggested that large maps exclusively have Dominion and smaller maps have an exclusive gametype of their own (I suggested Occupation, because I feel that KoTH is just better on smaller maps)

There have been many suggestions for new gametypes or (radical) changes to current gametypes, and one think I think we're forgetting when we debate on these decisions is... porque no las dos? That is, why not have more than one version of a gametype? We have had more than one type of KoTH since Halo 4 came out, so why not add some more types to the mix?

For instance, we could carry Lockdown and Dominion, but have some maps use only one of them. Longbow, for instance, sucks with Lockdown, but has a lot of potential for Dominion (5 bases!) Also, some folks have suggested we carry 1-site Extraction on small maps and 2-site on bigger maps. We also adopted the modded Single Flag gametype as soon as it became available to us and I am sure when the new gametype comes out with the Championship Bundle, we'll be scurrying to try to remake Sabotage once again (which will require us to have some kind of asymmetric version).

So why don't we expand our list of gametypes, then evaluate which games are best played on a certain map based on its size, symmetry, and critical locations?

[Yehsus]

Or we could take dominion out back into the woods and shoot it.

[VerbotenDonkey]

So why don't we expand our list of gametypes, then evaluate which games are best played on a certain map based on its size, symmetry, and critical locations?

Because we need to keep it simple. I don't want to have to remember that we use Lockdown, but not on these Maps. We use this gametype, but not on these two maps. etc etc. It's easier for everyone.

[Jam Cliché]

Because we need to keep it simple. I don't want to have to remember that we use Lockdown, but not on these Maps. We use this gametype, but not on these two maps. etc etc. It's easier for everyone.

We ought to have learned by now that we can't expect to have everything work under that principle. Even 343 understood that not every gametype works well on every map. It's the whole reason they continue to edit their Matchmaking playlists over the course of a game's lifetime.

[bazongaman502]

Never knew about that glitch till now

[KazuhLLL]

I agree, but no Lockdown on Exile. Have you ever played Lockdown on Exile, dude the RED side has the better advantage because their are fusion coils beside Blue stairs. By the time 4 or 5 come up there, killtacular here i come.


Because we need to keep it simple. I don't want to have to remember that we use Lockdown, but not on these Maps. We use this gametype, but not on these two maps. etc etc. It's easier for everyone.

Heavy Hill 30 uses a Dominion base. Regular Hill 30 uses a KoTH base. Both variants are counted in the required Hill 30 wins needed to attack a Capital

That sounds simple enough to me :P

[Jam Cliché]

Heavy Hill 30 uses a Dominion base. Regular Hill 30 uses a KoTH base. Both variants are counted in the required Hill 30 wins needed to attack a Capital

That sounds simple enough to me :P

We considered this, but it also begs the question what do we do with Executive if it is the exclusive small map game while Dominion used to be the exclusive Heavy? Also, what happens with maps like Longbow, which easily deserves 5 bases in Dominion? Do we keep both Dominion and Lockdown?

[UnfoldedFreedom]

We considered this, but it also begs the question what do we do with Executive if it is the exclusive small map game while Dominion used to be the exclusive Heavy? Also, what happens with maps like Longbow, which easily deserves 5 bases in Dominion? Do we keep both Dominion and Lockdown?

we had hill 30 and king of the will why not have both

[Jam Cliché]

we had hill 30 and king of the will why not have both

I was thinking that as a viable option, but it's beginning to look like Hill 30 just isn't a good option. Why not take out "Hill 30" as part of our lineup, but have some maps retain only a single Dominion base, like Settler? While others have more, like Longbow?

Sorry to say it, but unless we exclude Occupation or Dominion entirely, then Hill 30 seems redundant until we find a better way to do it.

[bl4yze]

I'd be 100% behind just getting rid of Dominion ;)

[Jam Cliché]

I'd be 100% behind just getting rid of Dominion ;)

But with some maps that would suuuuuuck.