PDA

View Full Version : WC Needs Your Feedback



Metkil5685
08-24-2015, 11:01 PM
Members of Forerunner Conflict,


Over the past weeks, various issues revolving Forerunner Conflict and it's Battle Nights have been getting worse and worse. Based off the events of the last two Battle Nights (8/16 and 8/23), WC had a meeting to discuss the issues and two drastic options came up. Although some wanted to move on the decisions right away, we decided to hold off on any decisions until we get more feedback from the community.


So here we are asking for your feedback on the two drastic options.


First, implementing a player draft. Solus has already made a thread pertaining to this, so please direct your feedback on this idea over to this thread: http://fcwars.net/forums/showthread.php?15472-Draft
If you don't know what the concept of the draft is, the tl;dr of it is this:
All members of the armies are put into a pool. The players are then split into an 'even' fashion (based on skill and numbers). This would only last for the duration of the current MCC war.


Second, ending the war now. The basis of this is that we're mere weeks from Halo 5. We need time to prepare for Halo 5. Also, with other releases in the coming weeks (namely The Taken King for Destiny) and the low popularity of MCC in general, we can only expect numbers for Battle Nights to diminish as we get closer to Halo 5. Obviously, if we do this, the Player Draft will not be implemented. If we do this, we're going to focus on more fun community driven events (not just limited to MCC) as the other purpose of this would be to promote community development in the down time.


So please, everyone, give us your feedback on this. War Council is going be meeting Tuesday/Wednesday (day undetermined right now) at 8pm EST. Spread this thread to everyone you know in FC.


Please,
be brutally honest.


Metkil5685
BLUE Field Marshall
Website Administrator

Legendary Nova
08-24-2015, 11:06 PM
In my opinion, no matter how thought out a draft is, it will never work as expected with everyone being happy with where they are. People would just regroup after a few weeks and then the entire draft would become uselessin the first place.

As for ending the war early, I don't really go to BN so I don't have a first-hand view of it, but from what I see people are just getting more and more frustrated with the current state of the war, so ending it might be the best way to go about it.

CAW0139
08-24-2015, 11:07 PM
CHANGE SOMETING GOD DAMNIT!!!! JUST ENDING THE WAR AND WAITING IS GETTING NOTHING DONE!!!!!
I dont like a draft because people will leave, ive said it in my posts, and responses to the draft have been pretty clear. Something does need changed though and simply ending the war and waiting for H5 is NOT a solution to the problem, its postponing it again.

GAMExSOLID
08-24-2015, 11:11 PM
I'm against a draft.

NervyDestroyer
08-25-2015, 12:03 AM
Competitive vs. Casual... Draft just mixes people up and that doesn't exactly bode well for what FC is trying to do. It's rather impossible to please both sides.

UnfoldedFreedom
08-25-2015, 01:17 AM
I play battle night's so i can play with my friends and so do many other members of this community. FC is not a charity. I'm not gonna spend my time with same people that try to get rid of vbd or the people that cant handle loosing even though they say they only play for fun. We need to think about the long-term effects of these solutions and not just change things for the sake of change.

Silko
08-25-2015, 01:41 AM
I play battle night's so i can play with my friends and so do many other members of this community. FC is not a charity. I'm not gonna spend my time with same people that try to get rid of vbd or the people that cant handle loosing even though they say they only play for fun. We need to think about the long-term effects of these solutions and not just change things for the sake of change.

Kinda agree here. Regardless of skill level people want to play with their friends. Yes, we should be playing as a community but that is what community events, in army scrims, practices and other events are for. I have seen it time after time after time again, if people don't have the people they enjoy playing with then they will slowly stop playing all together. Claiming that people do not want to do a draft because of the competitive v casual ideal is a complete red herring. I would not consider myself a super skilled player, I have fought and lead in each army and I still personally wouldn't want to play with people I don't feel comfortable playing with.

As for ending the war early, I can not speak on that topic as I haven't been active this war. While I agree with Caw, we can not just change something for the sake of changing things.

Seerow
08-25-2015, 01:51 AM
CHANGE SOMETING GOD DAMNIT!!!! JUST ENDING THE WAR AND WAITING IS GETTING NOTHING DONE!!!!!
I dont like a draft because people will leave, ive said it in my posts, and responses to the draft have been pretty clear. Something does need changed though and simply ending the war and waiting for H5 is NOT a solution to the problem, its postponing it again.

People are already leaving without the draft because of the skill imbalance. two of our recruits got off early, once after the first game with VbD and the second after the next that followed. honestly I don't think people will leave if the draft happens and if they do it will only be temporary since I personally find it really hard to leave FC regardless of how I feel about the shit job that's been done trying to fix the issues we only seem to be post-poning. Honestly, I've said it once and I'll say it again, Blue seems to be content with how things are going so long as they don't have to face a VbD and they get games Sunday. it seems they can give shits less about how things are effecting REDD members in this community and that's just wrong because it seems it's leaders are like-minded. Now if this is not the case, it certainly seems like it from my perspective and I apologize if it isn't so. I agree with CAW in saying that it is postponing the problem but on the other hand I wouldn't force people to continue to play if they aren't having fun.

tron
08-25-2015, 02:59 AM
I have a suggestion. Resistance to a draft is because people don't want to be separated from their friends, right? So how about the armies swapping a few whole squads (keeping the squads together), with a view to balancing out the skill levels between the armies? Squad members can even keep their ranks.

silversleek
08-25-2015, 03:23 AM
CHANGE SOMETING GOD DAMNIT!!!! JUST ENDING THE WAR AND WAITING IS GETTING NOTHING DONE!!!!!
I dont like a draft because people will leave, ive said it in my posts, and responses to the draft have been pretty clear. Something does need changed though and simply ending the war and waiting for H5 is NOT a solution to the problem, its postponing it again.

Agreed. People are saying not to just make change for the sake of change, but we're not. We need change because without it we die. We could wait till halo 5, maybe it's the saviour we've been waiting for, but if it's not? If it's not, and has issues like MCC did, we can't survive in our current state. I don't particularly like the idea of a draft. It's against a lot of what I believe this community stands for. But, I would accept one (grudgingly).

What I want is for WC to come to a decision to make a change. Without community feedback. I find our leaders are relying a bit too much on community feedback. What's the point of having leaders if they can't take initiative and make changes on their own? I feel like i've seen more polls for things lately than I have in years. Sometimes, you have to make hard decisions. Sometime's you'll fuck up, but you keep moving forwards. You always strive towards being better than before.


I have a suggestion. Resistance to a draft is because people don't want to be separated from their friends, right? So how about the armies swapping a few whole squads (keeping the squads together), with a view to balancing out the skill levels between the armies? Squad members can even keep their ranks.

I'll be completely honest here, I don't think the skill imbalance is nearly as bad as people are making it out to be, it's just a morale issue. Equinox can easily be a match for VBD if we play at our best, we've had close games that have ended with like, 10 points difference. We've beaten vbd mixes.

I've played with plenty of people from renegade, and even though they've had a poor record this war, They are easily a match for vague memories and umbra. They've been losing, yes, but they have so much potential. And, I mean a match for them right now, without a month long training montage.

I can't say much else for terminus/bellator/redwatch/legacy, as I don't know who's active in there.

But it's 100% a morale issue in my mind. People lost, and that made them not want to play and give it their all, and that made them lose more, and so on. What really needs to happen is something to fix the morale problem, not a skill imbalance (which does exist somewhat, but could easily be overcome with a little bit of practice. The most infuriating thing I hear in the casual vs competitive argument is the casuals not wanting to practice in order to keep up, but still complaining about losing. Surprise.) What that morale solution is I don't know.

Seerow
08-25-2015, 04:01 AM
I'll be completely honest here, I don't think the skill imbalance is nearly as bad as people are making it out to be, it's just a morale issue. Equinox can easily be a match for VBD if we play at our best, we've had close games that have ended with like, 10 points difference. We've beaten vbd mixes.

its been a while since Equinox has actually had a close game with VbD (since August 2nd which was by 1 extraction point in a game of extraction that VbD won.) Every other game since then has been around 50 point+ win by VbD sometimes doubling Equinox's score. VbD has lost one game since they started playing this war (a Forfeit which was probably connection related) and every other one they've won so I honestly don't know what you're talking about Silver.

Barry Soap
08-25-2015, 06:31 AM
its been a while since Equinox has actually had a close game with VbD (since August 2nd which was by 1 extraction point in a game of extraction that VbD won.) Every other game since then has been around 50 point+ win by VbD sometimes doubling Equinox's score. VbD has lost one game since they started playing this war (a Forfeit which was probably connection related) and every other one they've won so I honestly don't know what you're talking about Silver.

? He's not wrong, for us not practising I'd say we've done pretty damn well without having practice. That being said, the only reason we have preformed poorly recently is PURELY down to morale. Can you blame any of the Equinox members for not really trying in games that we know won't affect the outcome of the map?

Also, I've said this many times but I may as well echo it - I personally enjoy playing VbD because I know they're better than me but that isn't consistent across all of REDD. Recruits come into FC and are told that the community is lightly competitive. So when they come to battle night and get destroyed and demoralised, it basically makes recruiting low-skilled players pointless.

UnfoldedFreedom
08-25-2015, 08:40 AM
? He's not wrong, for us not practising I'd say we've done pretty damn well without having practice. That being said, the only reason we have preformed poorly recently is PURELY down to morale. Can you blame any of the Equinox members for not really trying in games that we know won't affect the outcome of the map?

Also, I've said this many times but I may as well echo it - I personally enjoy playing VbD because I know they're better than me but that isn't consistent across all of REDD. Recruits come into FC and are told that the community is lightly competitive. So when they come to battle night and get destroyed and demoralised, it basically makes recruiting low-skilled players pointless.

Judging what you guys are saying its really a redds mentality to challenges they face and instead of overcoming them you want to avoid it and look for an easy way out( This is my interpretation from the comments I have read so i apologize if this doesn't accurately represent all of redd ). So why push for such drastic changes when you guys arnt willing to put the work in? you guys say you don't practice. |You don't communicate properly to the new recruits what their experience could be during battle nights. So ofc they will feel frustrated because they thought they were joining a lightly competitive community then get stuck in a spawn trap for 15min.

Why should FC punish people that put the time in , and gets rewarded for their hard work just because other people who don't practice get upset because they lost and their egos hurt? FC IS NOT A CHARITY ( I apologize if this is inaccurate. I'm judging this on my limited knowledge from these comments)

If the problem is truly because of morale and your not motivated to put the work in then i'm sorry its not FC that needs changing its you.

I think we need to focus on making sure new recruits fully understand what they are getting into before they join the community instead of them being blind sided. If the issue is skill imbalance then a squad draft imo is the only fair compromise that i can see atm.

Sir Nihlus
08-25-2015, 09:25 AM
All members of the armies are put into a pool. The players are then split into an 'even' fashion (based on skill and numbers). This would only last for the duration of the current MCC war.

To be brutally honest, as requested, the reason why the idea of drafting falls flat every time when open to criticism of the community, is exactly for this reason. How does one set the guideline on determining who is of good skill, and bad skill? Is it based on K/D ratio? Is it based on their synergetic operations within a team? Is it based on their objective stats? Is it based on how many 1v1s they can win? Etcetera, etcetera. And not to mention, has War Council not considered the effects of a potential divide that such an audacious prerequisite like this can have on the community? It encourages labels, labels of which will make people aware that they have skill (inflating their egos), and others who have little skill who probably already have their confidence bust from losing battle night matches. The outcome of this? It will encourage the 'elitist' mindset that that the Halo Bungie forums were plagued with and infamous for which will scare all the so-called 'casuals' away. If such a thing ever happened, which is incredibly likely over time, I can only imagine that our predecessors of Halo 2 will be turning in their graves.

I have observed, and still don't have a grasp on why the emphasis on skill is so important. It's useless. You cannot associate skill with recruitment, because it encourages 'cherry-picking' which is not what this community is about, and will most certainly cause uproar. Thus, we have to get over the fact that skill is not something we can measure empirically, and use in our policy making when talking about balance. I have a very simple solution to get around this balance problem. We just need more people which equals more squads. If we have more squads in both armies, we will have more variability; more squads means that squads who were losing consecutively will have more chance to win, and vice-versa for the stronger squads who have more chance to lose. And to accomplish this, all we need to do is...

...recruit.

NervyDestroyer
08-25-2015, 09:50 AM
To be brutally honest, as requested, the reason why the idea of drafting falls flat every time when open to criticism of the community, is exactly for this reason. How does one set the guideline on determining who is of good skill, and bad skill? Is it based on K/D ratio? Is it based on their synergetic operations within a team? Is it based on their objective stats? Is it based on how many 1v1s they can win? Etcetera, etcetera. And not to mention, has War Council not considered the effects of a potential divide that such an audacious prerequisite like this can have on the community? It encourages labels, labels of which will make people aware that they have skill (inflating their egos), and others who have little skill who probably already have their confidence bust from losing battle night matches. The outcome of this? It will encourage the 'elitist' mindset that that the Halo Bungie forums were plagued with and infamous for which will scare all the so-called 'casuals' away. If such a thing ever happened, which is incredibly likely over time, I can only imagine that our predecessors of Halo 2 will be turning in their graves.

I have observed, and still don't have a grasp on why the emphasis on skill is so important. It's useless. You cannot associate skill with recruitment, because it encourages 'cherry-picking' which is not what this community is about, and will most certainly cause uproar. Thus, we have to get over the fact that skill is not something we can measure empirically, and use in our policy making when talking about balance. I have a very simple solution to get around this balance problem. We just need more people which equals more squads. If we have more squads in both armies, we will have more variability; more squads means that squads who were losing consecutively will have more chance to win, and vice-versa for the stronger squads who have more chance to lose. And to accomplish this, all we need to do is...

...recruit.

<3 <3 <3

Legendary Nova
08-25-2015, 10:01 AM
To be brutally honest, as requested, the reason why the idea of drafting falls flat every time when open to criticism of the community, is exactly for this reason. How does one set the guideline on determining who is of good skill, and bad skill? Is it based on K/D ratio? Is it based on their synergetic operations within a team? Is it based on their objective stats? Is it based on how many 1v1s they can win? Etcetera, etcetera. And not to mention, has War Council not considered the effects of a potential divide that such an audacious prerequisite like this can have on the community? It encourages labels, labels of which will make people aware that they have skill (inflating their egos), and others who have little skill who probably already have their confidence bust from losing battle night matches. The outcome of this? It will encourage the 'elitist' mindset that that the Halo Bungie forums were plagued with and infamous for which will scare all the so-called 'casuals' away. If such a thing ever happened, which is incredibly likely over time, I can only imagine that our predecessors of Halo 2 will be turning in their graves.

I have observed, and still don't have a grasp on why the emphasis on skill is so important. It's useless. You cannot associate skill with recruitment, because it encourages 'cherry-picking' which is not what this community is about, and will most certainly cause uproar. Thus, we have to get over the fact that skill is not something we can measure empirically, and use in our policy making when talking about balance. I have a very simple solution to get around this balance problem. We just need more people which equals more squads. If we have more squads in both armies, we will have more variability; more squads means that squads who were losing consecutively will have more chance to win, and vice-versa for the stronger squads who have more chance to lose. And to accomplish this, all we need to do is...

...recruit.

:bigpanda:

Solus Exsequor
08-25-2015, 10:02 AM
To be brutally honest, as requested, the reason why the idea of drafting falls flat every time when open to criticism of the community, is exactly for this reason. How does one set the guideline on determining who is of good skill, and bad skill? Is it based on K/D ratio? Is it based on their synergetic operations within a team? Is it based on their objective stats? Is it based on how many 1v1s they can win? Etcetera, etcetera. And not to mention, has War Council not considered the effects of a potential divide that such an audacious prerequisite like this can have on the community? It encourages labels, labels of which will make people aware that they have skill (inflating their egos), and others who have little skill who probably already have their confidence bust from losing battle night matches. The outcome of this? It will encourage the 'elitist' mindset that that the Halo Bungie forums were plagued with and infamous for which will scare all the so-called 'casuals' away. If such a thing ever happened, which is incredibly likely over time, I can only imagine that our predecessors of Halo 2 will be turning in their graves.

I have observed, and still don't have a grasp on why the emphasis on skill is so important. It's useless. You cannot associate skill with recruitment, because it encourages 'cherry-picking' which is not what this community is about, and will most certainly cause uproar. Thus, we have to get over the fact that skill is not something we can measure empirically, and use in our policy making when talking about balance. I have a very simple solution to get around this balance problem. We just need more people which equals more squads. If we have more squads in both armies, we will have more variability; more squads means that squads who were losing consecutively will have more chance to win, and vice-versa for the stronger squads who have more chance to lose. And to accomplish this, all we need to do is...

...recruit.

<3

GAMExSOLID
08-25-2015, 10:30 AM
Honestly, I've said it once and I'll say it again, Blue seems to be content with how things are going so long as they don't have to face a VbD and they get games Sunday. it seems they can give shits less about how things are effecting REDD members in this community and that's just wrong because it seems it's leaders are like-minded. Now if this is not the case, it certainly seems like it from my perspective and I apologize if it isn't so. I agree with CAW in saying that it is postponing the problem but on the other hand I wouldn't force people to continue to play if they aren't having fun.

I left REDD knowing I had to fight VbD. That was when BLUE was getting torched by REDD in my first war. My second I went BLUE luckily for me VbD went Blue like a week later.

Houdini
08-25-2015, 10:44 AM
I have seen it time after time after time again, if people don't have the people they enjoy playing with then they will slowly stop playing all together.

People are rapidly stopping playing currently. We have lost a lot of people over the last couple of wars (probably over 100). They were allowed (encouraged even) to play with their friends. They still left FC. More people have left FC than the entire population that is still here complaining about wanting to play with friends.

A draft may not be the best solution to solve all of our problems, but people leave because we let people play with their friends and people leave if we don't let them play with their friends. People are leaving way more frequently than should be acceptable.

FC needs to become a place where people actually want to show up on Battle Nights for a reason better than playing with friends. Playing with friends is the reason we all trumpet for why we show up on Battle Night—look at how many people show up. Blue can hardly field 2 6v6 teams. Red membership won't stick around for 4v4s. The reasoning we are using for why people come to FC is severely flawed. FC needs to become a place where people show up for more than just playing with their friends, otherwise, we aren't going to be able to recover from the path we have been on for over a year now.

*Not targeting this at you Silko, yours was just the first post that I saw with people leaving mentioned*

Barry Soap
08-25-2015, 10:48 AM
Judging what you guys are saying its really a redds mentality to challenges they face and instead of overcoming them you want to avoid it and look for an easy way out( This is my interpretation from the comments I have read so i apologize if this doesn't accurately represent all of redd ). So why push for such drastic changes when you guys arnt willing to put the work in? you guys say you don't practice. |You don't communicate properly to the new recruits what their experience could be during battle nights. So ofc they will feel frustrated because they thought they were joining a lightly competitive community then get stuck in a spawn trap for 15min.

Why should FC punish people that put the time in , and gets rewarded for their hard work just because other people who don't practice get upset because they lost and their egos hurt? FC IS NOT A CHARITY ( I apologize if this is inaccurate. I'm judging this on my limited knowledge from these comments)

If the problem is truly because of morale and your not motivated to put the work in then i'm sorry its not FC that needs changing its you.

I think we need to focus on making sure new recruits fully understand what they are getting into before they join the community instead of them being blind sided. If the issue is skill imbalance then a squad draft imo is the only fair compromise that i can see atm.

You know what, you're not wrong. I've been trying to hold practices a few times but people just hate MCC, or have busy schedules. Also, to have a chance against a full VbD team I'd need to put our best players into one team (which is regarded as stacking and I'm generally against that). I don't wanna leave out the lower skilled players to dry as a squad leader, but one day we'll take a win from ya. ;)

As for boot camps, if I was to tell recruits that the community has a very competitive edge, I'd probably get flak from vets regarding the status quo of explanations in boot camps. However, morale is so low because we feel that we're losing games which we could win, and our wins never really play a part in winning the map anyway. So your morale comment is wrong unfortunately.


People are rapidly stopping playing currently. We have lost a lot of people over the last couple of wars (probably over 100).

I can guarantee this is because the new people are coming to battle nights and getting stomped. The sooner more casual squads begin to form on each army, the better.


To be brutally honest, as requested, the reason why the idea of drafting falls flat every time when open to criticism of the community, is exactly for this reason. How does one set the guideline on determining who is of good skill, and bad skill? Is it based on K/D ratio? Is it based on their synergetic operations within a team? Is it based on their objective stats? Is it based on how many 1v1s they can win? Etcetera, etcetera. And not to mention, has War Council not considered the effects of a potential divide that such an audacious prerequisite like this can have on the community? It encourages labels, labels of which will make people aware that they have skill (inflating their egos), and others who have little skill who probably already have their confidence bust from losing battle night matches. The outcome of this? It will encourage the 'elitist' mindset that that the Halo Bungie forums were plagued with and infamous for which will scare all the so-called 'casuals' away. If such a thing ever happened, which is incredibly likely over time, I can only imagine that our predecessors of Halo 2 will be turning in their graves.

I have observed, and still don't have a grasp on why the emphasis on skill is so important. It's useless. You cannot associate skill with recruitment, because it encourages 'cherry-picking' which is not what this community is about, and will most certainly cause uproar. Thus, we have to get over the fact that skill is not something we can measure empirically, and use in our policy making when talking about balance. I have a very simple solution to get around this balance problem. We just need more people which equals more squads. If we have more squads in both armies, we will have more variability; more squads means that squads who were losing consecutively will have more chance to win, and vice-versa for the stronger squads who have more chance to lose. And to accomplish this, all we need to do is...

...recruit.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

silversleek
08-25-2015, 10:52 AM
Judging what you guys are saying its really a redds mentality to challenges they face and instead of overcoming them you want to avoid it and look for an easy way out( This is my interpretation from the comments I have read so i apologize if this doesn't accurately represent all of redd ).

I've seen that "avoid over conquer" mentality since the day i've joined FC, in whichever army doesn't have you guys. It's always "I don't want to play vbd, can we switch up the rotations" and "vbd should disband" and so on. Personally, I like playing you guys, it's a damn good challenge. but yeah, IMO the problem right now is primarily in the head's of the redd soldiers, and can be solved with just a little bit of effort put in by everyone to practice and get their head in the game. There's no hype for battlenights anymore here. Though, MCC might play a big part in that. Nobody wants to get on and play matchmaking, and not many people have a solid repertoire of customs. Which, of course, leads to less recruits because there's less people playing matchmaking, which leads to playing the same teams that people THINK they can't beat, leading to more demoralization... well, i'm sure you can see the pattern by now.

it's like I always say, 90% of fc's problems can be solved by just getting on and playing halo.

b1ackhawk40
08-25-2015, 10:58 AM
I have a suggestion. Resistance to a draft is because people don't want to be separated from their friends, right? So how about the armies swapping a few whole squads (keeping the squads together), with a view to balancing out the skill levels between the armies? Squad members can even keep their ranks. that's a pretty good idea I like it !

Drth spartan
08-25-2015, 11:08 AM
People are already leaving without the draft because of the skill imbalance. two of our recruits got off early, once after the first game with VbD and the second after the next that followed. honestly I don't think people will leave if the draft happens and if they do it will only be temporary since I personally find it really hard to leave FC regardless of how I feel about the shit job that's been done trying to fix the issues we only seem to be post-poning. Honestly, I've said it once and I'll say it again, Blue seems to be content with how things are going so long as they don't have to face a VbD and they get games Sunday. it seems they can give shits less about how things are effecting REDD members in this community and that's just wrong because it seems it's leaders are like-minded. Now if this is not the case, it certainly seems like it from my perspective and I apologize if it isn't so. I agree with CAW in saying that it is postponing the problem but on the other hand I wouldn't force people to continue to play if they aren't having fun.

I feel like there is a communication problem between armies because I'm constantly hearing ideas from blue players on how to change things to make it enjoyable to both teams.

I think we need to have a redd and blue get together on xbox live every week or two weeks that way there is less of a communication barrier.

Houdini
08-25-2015, 11:28 AM
Honestly, I've said it once and I'll say it again, Blue seems to be content with how things are going so long as they don't have to face a VbD and they get games Sunday. it seems they can give shits less about how things are effecting REDD members in this community and that's just wrong because it seems it's leaders are like-minded. Now if this is not the case, it certainly seems like it from my perspective and I apologize if it isn't so.

I can't speak for the entire blue army, but at least for me this isn't the case. I remember being on the other side of the skill imbalance (when this whole FC is dying trend started back in Rec3). I hated playing last war because it wasn't fun. It isn't fun being on either side of 400-0 games. Something does need to change.

- - - Updated - - -


I have a suggestion. Resistance to a draft is because people don't want to be separated from their friends, right? So how about the armies swapping a few whole squads (keeping the squads together), with a view to balancing out the skill levels between the armies? Squad members can even keep their ranks.

What squads would be able to transfer? VbD is pretty heavily ingrained in Blue and probably will not switch. Vague Memories is 2/3 of Blue High Command. Umbra is probably blue's weakest squad and only fielded ~4-5 people last BN. Which squad would work for fixing balancing issues?

Houdini
08-25-2015, 11:33 AM
What I want is for WC to come to a decision to make a change. Without community feedback. I find our leaders are relying a bit too much on community feedback. What's the point of having leaders if they can't take initiative and make changes on their own? I feel like i've seen more polls for things lately than I have in years. Sometimes, you have to make hard decisions. Sometime's you'll fuck up, but you keep moving forwards. You always strive towards being better than before.

Community feedback should be very important. Without the community what are we? That said, I can't imagine any decision putting the community in a worse place.




I'll be completely honest here, I don't think the skill imbalance is nearly as bad as people are making it out to be, it's just a morale issue. Equinox can easily be a match for VBD if we play at our best, we've had close games that have ended with like, 10 points difference. We've beaten vbd mixes.

I've played with plenty of people from renegade, and even though they've had a poor record this war, They are easily a match for vague memories and umbra. They've been losing, yes, but they have so much potential. And, I mean a match for them right now, without a month long training montage.

I can't say much else for terminus/bellator/redwatch/legacy, as I don't know who's active in there.

But it's 100% a morale issue in my mind. People lost, and that made them not want to play and give it their all, and that made them lose more, and so on. What really needs to happen is something to fix the morale problem, not a skill imbalance (which does exist somewhat, but could easily be overcome with a little bit of practice. The most infuriating thing I hear in the casual vs competitive argument is the casuals not wanting to practice in order to keep up, but still complaining about losing. Surprise.) What that morale solution is I don't know.

I obviously cannot know about the morale situation in red right now, but the stat book is pretty telling that we do have a skill imbalance. I can't remember playing in a war with this lopsided of games. I see maybe one game that was even remotely close on last Battle Night.

Guzzie
08-25-2015, 12:30 PM
I am going to go ahead and leave this here:

http://fcwars.net/forums/showthread.php?8753-Common-Suggestions
As a refresher for the old timers and to bring it up to the attention of our newer members, the above is a list of frequent suggestions that have come up throughout the years. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with them.
For those of you that are too lazy and/or indifferent to click the link, this is the bit that is most relevant to the topic at hand:



Suggestion: To improve squad equality and make things more fun, we should implement a draft where leaders pick between all the members in FC! Kind of like an NFL Fantasy Draft!

Answer: Interesting idea, sonny, I can tell you've been thinking long and hard, and I'd be lying if I said this one never crossed my mind. However, back in the good ol' Halo: Reach days this was tried once, albeit in a much different manner and scope, but the result was a cut in our activity to near detrimental levels. People are in a squad because those are the people they like to play with, so splitting people from their friends gets sticky. Put simply, a draft wont happen, at least not in the anywhere near future. People gravitate towards those they want to play with, forcing them elsewhere isn't going to be pretty.


----

Before you begin to consider the idea of a draft, I really encourage you to fully consider the long term effects that it will have in the community. If you are replying with personal feeling attached, I implore you to take a step back and truly analyze the situation.

Playing with friends:

The number 1 reason people get on every Sunday to play in battles is because of their friends (besides the existing responsibility some have to their armies, which really only applies to member holding higher ranks and thus are responsible for keeping a consistent attendance), it is truly as simple as that; even more so in the current state of the community (the halo community as a whole). Halo/MCC has become such a hassle to play, that often times people are asking/begging their friends to get on to play on battles. We take away that incentive, that reason to even play, and you will see a significant drop in activity from that particular group of players, the ones that get on to play with their friends. After all, this supposed to be about fun. It is always more fun to play with friends. Win or lose, it is more fun to do so with those you are close with. I think a lot of you are heavily underestimating the importance of this.

Recruitment and Squads:

What would happen to recruits and those recruiting to build a squad? Why even recruit if you know that you will soon be split from the person you worked so hard to bring into your squad. The following is a quote from Solus Exsequor from the War Council chat on his approach to recruiting:


[8/24/2015 2:30:39 PM] Dillon 'Solus' Grant : He doesn't have a secret recipe. I have a standard message I send out. I send out around 30 messages and get 3 responses, one with no thanks and the other two want to join. Normally one of the two you just can't ever get a hold of again and the one is someone who shows up, then you have to retain them. Retention is at around 3/10 right now
[8/24/2015 2:31:07 PM] Dillon 'Solus' Grant : I used to recruit for 10 hours, I would pull in 2 or 3 guys
[8/24/2015 2:31:25 PM] Dillon 'Solus' Grant : Of that, one stayed active over around 35 hours of recruiting in a week

Are you really telling me that people will put that much time into recruiting only to have those people potentially be sent to the other army? Another squad? The entire principle behind squads would be gone. Comradery, companionship, friendships built over time; all that would all be thrown out the window.
A lot of people make recruitment a personal thing. Retention in part comes to the relationship built with said recruit. You want to make them feel welcomed, part of something, involved with others in their squad (all of which take a lot of time, as stated by Solus). If you take away the importance of squads, kill long lasting bonds and diminish the bonds created between squad mates, what realistic retention methods do you think will be left?

Returning Members:

Halo 5 is right around the corner, two months to be exact. With that release, we will inevitably see the return of many older members (it happens with every halo release). A lot of those members will be looking to come back to play with their friends once again. I know for a fact that there are a few members out there that just cannot stand MCC and are indeed waiting for H5 to make a comeback. They will inevitably gravitate towards familiar faces and familiar names. They might even enlist in their old army. A draft may discourage them from even bothering to come back. After all, people want to feel comfortable. Playing with people you know will make them feel at ease, even welcomed.

Judging Skill:
I had my own words planned for what issues would surface from dividing the community and members based on skill, but Lith put it very nicely and eloquently. In summary, it would be like a game of pickup dodgeball, with the fat kid getting being picked last, branded and having his feelings hurt. Oh, and not to mention the logistical nightmare it would create.

To be brutally honest, as requested, the reason why the idea of drafting falls flat every time when open to criticism of the community, is exactly for this reason. How does one set the guideline on determining who is of good skill, and bad skill? Is it based on K/D ratio? Is it based on their synergetic operations within a team? Is it based on their objective stats? Is it based on how many 1v1s they can win? Etcetera, etcetera. And not to mention, has War Council not considered the effects of a potential divide that such an audacious prerequisite like this can have on the community? It encourages labels, labels of which will make people aware that they have skill (inflating their egos), and others who have little skill who probably already have their confidence bust from losing battle night matches. The outcome of this? It will encourage the 'elitist' mindset that that the Halo Bungie forums were plagued with and infamous for which will scare all the so-called 'casuals' away. If such a thing ever happened, which is incredibly likely over time, I can only imagine that our predecessors of Halo 2 will be turning in their graves.

Operation Firestorm:
^enough said

Houdini
08-25-2015, 12:56 PM
Playing with friends:

The number 1 reason people get on every Sunday to play in battles is because of their friends (besides the existing responsibility some have to their armies, which really only applies to member holding higher ranks and thus are responsible for keeping a consistent attendance), it is truly as simple as that; even more so in the current state of the community (the halo community as a whole). Halo/MCC has become such a hassle to play, that often times people are asking/begging their friends to get on to play on battles. We take away that incentive, that reason to even play, and you will see a significant drop in activity from that particular group of players, the ones that get on to play with their friends. After all, this supposed to be about fun. It is always more fun to play with friends. Win or lose, it is more fun to do so with those you are close with. I think a lot of you are heavily underestimating the importance of this.

The fact that this is the number 1 reason people get on is a major problem. I'm not saying playing with friends is bad. The only reason I'm still in this community is because of the people I get to play with. Vague Memories is keeping me in this community. Zeta Crossfire came back last night and he being there made last BN one of the better nights I've had in a long time. If W3z4b1 comes back for Halo 5, I will probably be doing everything in my power to get in the same squad and team on Battle Night as him. I completely understand wanting to play with friends.

The problem with this being our number 1 reason for showing up on Battle Night is that it makes recruiting/retaining recruits nearly impossible. We are mass recruiting by sending out messages on Xbox Live and posting on forums all over the internet. These people that we are bringing in are not our friends (yet). What reason do they have for showing up on battle night? This is a problem that needs to be addressed. Our primary reason for attending is friendship, how can we possibly grow the community outside what limited circles of friends we currently have?

Platinum
08-25-2015, 01:15 PM
Draft sounds good on paper but it will honestly fail. People want to play with their friends, and a draft would take that away from them. Both sides, casual and competitive, should see how a draft isn't the right thing to do. It goes against what FC stands for, which is to have fun. Have fun above all else.

Casual Camp
I assume that casuals are in it for the fun. FC is that, fun! A place to get with your FRIENDS, play halo and have fun. Thats what everyone does in this community, play with friends. Why should one group of friends have to give up their fun for the sake of another? I'd quit the community if a group of friends and myself were forced to split up due to us knowing each other well enough and how we play. It'll fix one sides happiness, but will ultimately go against what FC stands for and will drive away a group of people that has been with the community longer than most.

Competitive Camp
I already know this side doesn't want the draft. But I'm going to explain it anyway! Chemistry! Chemistry will, 90% of the time, overpower individual skill in Halo games as Halo has always been known as the teamwork>solo FPS. The competitive players in this community know this which is why the disdain for a draft is there. A draft will break every strand of chemistry in this community, which will ruin the experience for everyone sitting in this camp which would in turn lead to players not bothering to show up to BN. Back to square one if so. Has anyone ever played FIFA Ultimate Team or NBA 2K MyTeam? You can stack your team with loads of talent and they can play like shit if the chemistry isn't there. It applies here too, applies in everyday situations. A draft would break chemistry and people will lose the Fun factor in FC. Don't let that happen.

Barry Soap
08-25-2015, 01:36 PM
"We all know that VbD is the most competitive squad in this mofo by the simple fact you guys wont let ANYONE into your squad without having a certain standard of skill. when VbD got new members they were from a squad that,at the time, could only compete with VbDs skill and its fairly obvious that it wasn't coincidence that you guys became 'friends' fast. To me it seem you fear losing more then anyone else in this community because you refuse to let anyone else be apart and if you're missing 1 or 2 members of VbD you refuse to put your squad name down on the stat book for fear of getting a loss. I mean lets be honest here, you and Guzzie are like the only active members of VbD in the community in terms of the forum and generally mingling with other community members (mainly guzzie). the other members of VbD probably haven't touch the site since they applied to join the community. They are power you guys can summon whenever Guzzie asks; other then that they have nothing else invested into this community. Main reason no one in BLUE says anything is cause they generate wins so lets just stay hush hush until the shoe is on the other foot shall we?"

^ This was posted to me by a certain FC member, I'll respect the anonymity but it may be a valid point.

Platinum
08-25-2015, 02:26 PM
This thread went from about why the draft should or shouldn't happen, to VbD.

Seerow
08-25-2015, 02:33 PM
This thread went from about why or why not the draft should happen, to VbD.

sounds like a bi-product, possibly a source to some of the issues here in FC today. one people have turned a blind eye to for so long. Most of whats in that statement I believe to be true.

CAW0139
08-25-2015, 02:45 PM
What if we split the difference between squad draft and player draft. It seems to me like the majority of people are opposed to a draft, but what if we try taking each squad splitting it in half (to keep at least some of each squad and friends together) and the have red and blue give a half from each squad to the other army. It keeps some friends together still. As people have mentioned, they can still play together outside of Battle Night. And the rosters get a little bit of a skill mix up. I agree with Silverstreek that it may be more of a morale thing, but new people can easily correct that if the Battle Nights become closer in competition.

Silko
08-25-2015, 02:54 PM
I really grow tired of reading and hearing complaints about VBD when 80% of the current community have no idea what true power stacking during a war is. Most people here where not here during the 2nd war of REACH where we saw the leaders of REDD army purposely forcing other squads to go offline or just flat out sit out to make sure power squads such as VBD (I do not blame VBD for this, again this was the fault of the leadership of the time) got as much play time as possible. I am talking about 30 min wait times just to play VBD, wait another 15 mins then play VBD again because the squad you were meant to play against just vanished into thin air. That war is the direct reason why we have several of the rules that limit how much squads can play and other rules for battle nights. So unless you actually played during that war you honestly have no clue so just stop.

As for the skill imbalance. This is a problem that will never go away and a draft is not a magical solution that will fix it. In the past wars, squads where recruited to counter power squads, squads trained hard to be able to compete with other power squads. So this idea that only a draft can true fix this is a load of bull. REDWATCH worked very hard to become a low skilled team to a mid/high skill objective team that could battle against strong squads such as VBD, Voodoo, Legacy and others. They did this by practicing, something several members of REDD army have already admitted to not currently doing. This us vs them mentality that continues to plague FC is the reason behind so much discontent. I have been at the mercy of super squads, help built super squads and have fought with super squads. They will always be apart of FC. Am I suggesting we just make super squads all day and move on, no I am suggesting that we work with what we have atm, recruit where we can (Yes I know recruiting is very ineffective at the moment due to this POS MCC) and stop with the victim playing.

Houdini
08-25-2015, 03:37 PM
As for the skill imbalance. This is a problem that will never go away and a draft is not a magical solution that will fix it. In the past wars, squads where recruited to counter power squads, squads trained hard to be able to compete with other power squads. So this idea that only a draft can true fix this is a load of bull. REDWATCH worked very hard to become a low skilled team to a mid/high skill objective team that could battle against strong squads such as VBD, Voodoo, Legacy and others. They did this by practicing, something several members of REDD army have already admitted to not currently doing. This us vs them mentality that continues to plague FC is the reason behind so much discontent. I have been at the mercy of super squads, help built super squads and have fought with super squads. They will always be apart of FC. Am I suggesting we just make super squads all day and move on, no I am suggesting that we work with what we have atm, recruit where we can (Yes I know recruiting is very ineffective at the moment due to this POS MCC) and stop with the victim playing.

A skill imbalance has always been present, but it is extremely bad currently. A 'fun' exercise we did in the VM chat the other day was list all of the 'power players' in red. Then list all of the power players in blue.

Maybe you'll have a different list than we did, but red's list wasn't even a fraction of what we came up with for Blue. That is the real problem. Both armies would have to double in size with red only recruiting power players and blue only recruiting not-so-power players. But that is clearly not a viable solution at all.

Platinum
08-25-2015, 03:43 PM
I really grow tired of reading and hearing complaints about VBD when 80% of the current community have no idea what true power stacking during a war is. Most people here where not here during the 2nd war of REACH where we saw the leaders of REDD army purposely forcing other squads to go offline or just flat out sit out to make sure power squads such as VBD (I do not blame VBD for this, again this was the fault of the leadership of the time) got as much play time as possible. I am talking about 30 min wait times just to play VBD, wait another 15 mins then play VBD again because the squad you were meant to play against just vanished into thin air. That war is the direct reason why we have several of the rules that limit how much squads can play and other rules for battle nights. So unless you actually played during that war you honestly have no clue so just stop.

As for the skill imbalance. This is a problem that will never go away and a draft is not a magical solution that will fix it. In the past wars, squads where recruited to counter power squads, squads trained hard to be able to compete with other power squads. So this idea that only a draft can true fix this is a load of bull. REDWATCH worked very hard to become a low skilled team to a mid/high skill objective team that could battle against strong squads such as VBD, Voodoo, Legacy and others. They did this by practicing, something several members of REDD army have already admitted to not currently doing. This us vs them mentality that continues to plague FC is the reason behind so much discontent. I have been at the mercy of super squads, help built super squads and have fought with super squads. They will always be apart of FC. Am I suggesting we just make super squads all day and move on, no I am suggesting that we work with what we have atm, recruit where we can (Yes I know recruiting is very ineffective at the moment due to this POS MCC) and stop with the victim playing.

Everything in the second paragraph! Tis be true! When I was active during battle nights, countering the super squad went as far as recruiting some of the best online players for Halo 4 (Velocity), although they were soon booted out for being a bit disrespectful. I blame Obama for the MCC woes.

- - - Updated - - -


A skill imbalance has always been present, but it is extremely bad currently. A 'fun' exercise we did in the VM chat the other day was list all of the 'power players' in red. Then list all of the power players in blue.

Maybe you'll have a different list than we did, but red's list wasn't even a fraction of what we came up with for Blue. That is the real problem. Both armies would have to double in size with red only recruiting power players and blue only recruiting not-so-power players. But that is clearly not a viable solution at all.

Houdini, I raised you better than this! Why is everyone stopping at recruiting? Shouldn't stop at all, after they join, teach them everythin you know! Do your best to mold them into a better player. Ive seen numerous players join this community and become better at the game months in.

Houdini
08-25-2015, 03:49 PM
Houdini, I raised you better than this! Why is everyone stopping at recruiting? Shouldn't stop at all, after they join, teach them everythin you know! Do your best to mold them into a better player. Ive seen numerous players join this community and become better at the game months in.

This is definitely still happening in Blue. Look at Umbra. They were a brand new squad with almost 100% recruits at the start of the war.
Week 1:
Renegade vs. Umbra - Occupation - 410 - 217 Redd
Equinox vs. Umbra - Conflict - 99 - 31 Redd
Equinox vs. Umbra - Asset 369 - 261 Redd

Week 7 (this past weekend)
Renegade vs. Umbra - Ricochet - 410 - 50 Blue
Terminus (Ghosts) vs. Umbra - Liberation 5 - 2 Blue

They started playing together and have gotten much better of the the course of the war. Granted they did drop some of their lower skilled players (probably because they were being stomped on so hard at the beginning of the war), but the people who stayed built chemistry and showed that it is still possible for squads to improve and turn themselves around.

Seerow
08-25-2015, 04:18 PM
I really grow tired of reading and hearing complaints about VBD when 80% of the current community have no idea what true power stacking during a war is. Most people here where not here during the 2nd war of REACH where we saw the leaders of REDD army purposely forcing other squads to go offline or just flat out sit out to make sure power squads such as VBD (I do not blame VBD for this, again this was the fault of the leadership of the time) got as much play time as possible. I am talking about 30 min wait times just to play VBD, wait another 15 mins then play VBD again because the squad you were meant to play against just vanished into thin air. That war is the direct reason why we have several of the rules that limit how much squads can play and other rules for battle nights. So unless you actually played during that war you honestly have no clue so just stop.

As for the skill imbalance. This is a problem that will never go away and a draft is not a magical solution that will fix it. In the past wars, squads where recruited to counter power squads, squads trained hard to be able to compete with other power squads. So this idea that only a draft can true fix this is a load of bull. REDWATCH worked very hard to become a low skilled team to a mid/high skill objective team that could battle against strong squads such as VBD, Voodoo, Legacy and others. They did this by practicing, something several members of REDD army have already admitted to not currently doing. This us vs them mentality that continues to plague FC is the reason behind so much discontent. I have been at the mercy of super squads, help built super squads and have fought with super squads. They will always be apart of FC. Am I suggesting we just make super squads all day and move on, no I am suggesting that we work with what we have atm, recruit where we can (Yes I know recruiting is very ineffective at the moment due to this POS MCC) and stop with the victim playing.

The reason people 'complain' about it is because it's a problem. They are literally the last of the power squads and honestly it's not all their doing, it's the rest of the people "mostly those whom are on their side" that allow them to remain isolationist; Allow them to be exempt to any type of fix we try to implement unless they're okay with it. This community has literally slighted many squads in their favor. Many have had to made changes in the name of balance only to remain with the same issues. A simple solution such as allowing more members to enter their ranks is for some reason unspeakable to them. For someone with such a such a distinguishable rank to turn away new members is kinda dispicable. They're a power squad simply because every single one of their member is a high caliber player. They don't have mixed skill sets like the rest of us do, they don't welcome other community member with open arms like the rest of us do. This is an even bigger deal if you want to continue a war with this low of numbers. You say people got better by practicing to face VbD but tell me how many recruits do you think are willing to go through such a trying endeavor for a community they just joined? There's only so many times someone new to the community is going to cope with being stomped on before they decide they're just better off leaving. Don't say they should just leave either cause these are members we all need. This whole time we've been working with 'what we've had' and things really havent improved. I think it's high time that they try to play ball like the rest of us and be willing to make a change if necessary.

UnfoldedFreedom
08-25-2015, 04:31 PM
yup vbd only takes in the best like md ,blayze, Akward , gingie and aftershocker.

Seerow
08-25-2015, 04:32 PM
yup vbd only takes in the best like md ,blayze, Akward , gingie and aftershocker.

Haha Classic you XD

UnfoldedFreedom
08-25-2015, 04:48 PM
Haha Classic you XD

Hey weren't you taking sometime off until halo 5 ? I'm glad to see you changed your mind.

Haha Classic you XD

Platinum
08-25-2015, 04:55 PM
The reason people 'complain' about it is because it's a problem. They are literally the last of the power squads and honestly it's not all their doing, it's the rest of the people "mostly those whom are on their side" that allow them to remain isolationist; Allow them to be exempt to any type of fix we try to implement unless they're okay with it. This community has literally slighted many squads in their favor. Many have had to made changes in the name of balance only to remain with the same issues. A simple solution such as allowing more members to enter their ranks is for some reason unspeakable to them. For someone with such a such a distinguishable rank to turn away new members is kinda dispicable. They're a power squad simply because every single one of their member is a high caliber player. They don't have mixed skill sets like the rest of us do, they don't welcome other community member with open arms like the rest of us do. This is an even bigger deal if you want to continue a war with this low of numbers. You say people got better by practicing to face VbD but tell me how many recruits do you think are willing to go through such a trying endeavor for a community they just joined? There's only so many times someone new to the community is going to cope with being stomped on before they decide they're just better off leaving. Don't say they should just leave either cause these are members we all need. This whole time we've been working with 'what we've had' and things really havent improved. I think it's high time that they try to play ball like the rest of us and be willing to make a change if necessary.

To be fair, the biggest reason VbD is so good is because of their chemistry together. They play with one another so much that they know each others playing styles. You make them sound like they're gods among men (granted they are very good) but they have faults too. The entire purpose behind a team is to have players that compliment your own playing style and playing to your strengths/picking up where you can't. VbD is great, no doubt, but each member isn't a master of all trades. Velocity could be considered to be the best individual players ever to join FC seeing how they were, and still are, among the best Halo 4 players of All time (http://prntscr.com/88uq7n). However, they were pushed around by VbD still. Skill goes a long way, but the cohesion and chemistry goes much farther.

Community shouldn't punish a group of friends for being able to work like a well oiled machine, even if it means its costing the other side.

CAW0139
08-25-2015, 04:58 PM
yup vbd only takes in the best like md ,blayze, Akward , gingie and aftershocker.

my attempts to infiltrate this elite squad has failed thus far in my FC career...............lol

Guzzie
08-25-2015, 05:03 PM
my attempts to infiltrate this elite squad has failed thus far in my FC career...............lol
Huh? lol. When did you try to join VbD? YOU ARE LEADING UMBRA YOU DWEEB >:/

Barry Soap
08-25-2015, 05:10 PM
my attempts to infiltrate this elite squad has failed thus far in my FC career...............lol

Join the line. I know Barbie Boy will be waiting for you at the back

fearfulpenguin
08-25-2015, 05:19 PM
Don't worry guys I have been made a honorary member of VbD, only thing is I can't participate with them in battlenight :P

Houdini
08-25-2015, 05:53 PM
Community shouldn't punish a group of friends for being able to work like a well oiled machine, even if it means its costing the other side.

The community also shouldn't punish a group of friends who haven't been playing together for years and aren't able to work like a well oiled machine (yet).

The hard part is pleasing both sides, which currently we are not doing.

- - - Updated - - -


Don't worry guys I have been made a honorary member of VbD, only thing is I can't participate with them in battlenight :P

That's because you would overshadow Guzzie's skills and he doesn't like that.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 06:02 PM
I think the desire for a draft among many people in FC is really not because people literally want a draft, but because it has become the only real solution that doesn't result in some pseudo-political manipulation.



Before you begin to consider the idea of a draft, I really encourage you to fully consider the long term effects that it will have in the community. If you are replying with personal feeling attached, I implore you to take a step back and truly analyze the situation.

Frankly I would ask you to do the same, as a leader of this community. For 4 years pretty much no one has wanted to play VbD. Of course there are some of us competitive nature people who don't mind, but 90% of FC doesn't like playing you, and many, many people have left because of it and other skill imbalances resulting from it. Not to mention the attitude.

I can't tell if as a leader of this community you simply have been unable to see the damage having such an overpowered squad in a community like this has done and will continue to do, or if you've just ignored that problem altogether. The squad could easily take in newer recruits of lesser skill to even things out. And frankly, if this were 100% about the squad remaining together as friends, something like this would have been done. There are lots of ways to fix the problem without splitting up friends. But it hasn't even been tried. For years. Not weeks, or months, but literally years. So VbD keeps stomping people 90% of the time, to no one's liking, and no one's fun. But the real kicker is the denial of such a problem after years of pleading from multiple generations of FC members, along with the blatant attitude the unit shows towards those outside of it.

It has literally taken me less time to start and graduate college than it has for an entire community of people to convince a leadership group to do something about a god squad problem that I guarantee has lost this community over 100 recruits over the last 4 years. I can name 10-15 off the top of my head alone. I'm sure others can do the same. Lots of people want to just show up and play because it's a fucking video game and this isn't ESL. Those who practice should do better, but the deck shouldn't be stacked against everyone.


Maybe a draft isn't the exact answer. But pussyfooting around with shitty changes that don't do anything is a worse answer, and that's what most people are starting to realize.


It's sad. It really is. I would never have spent the time I did for FC if I didn't once love it here and see the potential. But you've gotta look to the future, and not stagnate with the past. This is one large issue, and I'll be very interested to see if someone manages to grow the balls to solve it.

Seerow
08-25-2015, 06:08 PM
I think the desire for a draft among many people in FC is really not because people literally want a draft, but because it has become the only real solution that doesn't result in some pseudo-political manipulation.




Frankly I would ask you to do the same, as a leader of this community. For 4 years pretty much no one has wanted to play VbD. Of course there are some of us competitive nature people who don't mind, but 90% of FC doesn't like playing you, and many, many people have left because of it and other skill imbalances resulting from it. Not to mention the attitude.

I can't tell if as a leader of this community you simply have been unable to see the damage having such an overpowered squad in a community like this has done and will continue to do, or if you've just ignored that problem altogether. The squad could easily take in newer recruits of lesser skill to even things out. And frankly, if this were 100% about the squad remaining together as friends, something like this would have been done. There are lots of ways to fix the problem without splitting up friends. But it hasn't even been tried. For years. Not weeks, or months, but literally years. So VbD keeps stomping people 90% of the time, to no one's liking, and no one's fun. But the real kicker is the denial of such a problem after years of pleading from multiple generations of FC members, along with the blatant attitude the unit shows towards those outside of it.

It has literally taken me less time to start and graduate college than it has for an entire community of people to convince a leadership group to do something about a god squad problem that I guarantee has lost this community over 100 recruits over the last 4 years. I can name 10-15 off the top of my head alone. I'm sure others can do the same. Lots of people want to just show up and play because it's a fucking video game and this isn't ESL. Those who practice should do better, but the deck shouldn't be stacked against everyone.


Maybe a draft isn't the exact answer. But pussyfooting around with shitty changes that don't do anything is a worse answer, and that's what most people are starting to realize.


It's sad. It really is. I would never have spent the time I did for FC if I didn't once love it here and see the potential. But you've gotta look to the future, and not stagnate with the past. This is one large issue, and I'll be very interested to see if someone manages to grow the balls to solve it.

We honestly haven't seen eye to eye in a while anarchy but I wholeheartedly agree with you with this one. as someone whom has been here since 2011 its something I've noticed and seen with my own eyes.

Maxdoggy
08-25-2015, 06:20 PM
For everyone who cares where I've been, I've been unavailable due to moving. However, I've been keeping up on this thread.

Rounin and Unfolded: This is your official warning for harassment/trolling/flamebaiting. You've appeared to have stopped. Let's keep it that way.

Keep it clean, Lads and Ladies.

Platinum
08-25-2015, 06:43 PM
I think the desire for a draft among many people in FC is really not because people literally want a draft, but because it has become the only real solution that doesn't result in some pseudo-political manipulation.




Frankly I would ask you to do the same, as a leader of this community. For 4 years pretty much no one has wanted to play VbD. Of course there are some of us competitive nature people who don't mind, but 90% of FC doesn't like playing you, and many, many people have left because of it and other skill imbalances resulting from it. Not to mention the attitude.

I can't tell if as a leader of this community you simply have been unable to see the damage having such an overpowered squad in a community like this has done and will continue to do, or if you've just ignored that problem altogether. The squad could easily take in newer recruits of lesser skill to even things out. And frankly, if this were 100% about the squad remaining together as friends, something like this would have been done. There are lots of ways to fix the problem without splitting up friends. But it hasn't even been tried. For years. Not weeks, or months, but literally years. So VbD keeps stomping people 90% of the time, to no one's liking, and no one's fun. But the real kicker is the denial of such a problem after years of pleading from multiple generations of FC members, along with the blatant attitude the unit shows towards those outside of it.

It has literally taken me less time to start and graduate college than it has for an entire community of people to convince a leadership group to do something about a god squad problem that I guarantee has lost this community over 100 recruits over the last 4 years. I can name 10-15 off the top of my head alone. I'm sure others can do the same. Lots of people want to just show up and play because it's a fucking video game and this isn't ESL. Those who practice should do better, but the deck shouldn't be stacked against everyone.


Maybe a draft isn't the exact answer. But pussyfooting around with shitty changes that don't do anything is a worse answer, and that's what most people are starting to realize.


It's sad. It really is. I would never have spent the time I did for FC if I didn't once love it here and see the potential. But you've gotta look to the future, and not stagnate with the past. This is one large issue, and I'll be very interested to see if someone manages to grow the balls to solve it.

To be fair Anarchy, the one and only real chance of a second super squad that could actually be able to beat VbD was banned because they teabagged. I've seen numerous people in this community teabag the living shit out of people during battlenights (most were punished) but they weren't ban hammered. The entire VbD domination thing could have played out completely different if we as a community didn't ban one of Velocity's members and cause the entire group to leave (over a mouth full of spartan nuts).

As to keep on topic so I won't get a finger wag from anyone :P I've just realized I have no clue why a draft is needed. Is it because of low numbers? The public rosters for each army are almost the same size, give or take a few players. Or is it because no squad can beat VbD? I'm confused!

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 06:50 PM
To be fair Anarchy, the one and only real chance of a second super squad that could actually be able to beat VbD was banned because they teabagged. I've seen numerous people in this community teabag the living shit out of people during battlenights (most were punished) but they weren't ban hammered. The entire VbD domination thing could have played out completely different if we as a community didn't ban one of Velocity's members and cause the entire group to leave (over a mouth full of spartan nuts).

As to keep on topic so I won't get a finger wag from anyone :P I've just realized I have no clue why a draft is needed. Is it because of low numbers? The public rosters for each army are almost the same size, give or take a few players. Or is it because no squad can beat VbD? I'm confused!
Velocity was literally inviting people into their party during the week talking shit to them. They had a lot of issues.


The solution isn't "more god squads" anyway. We've tried that, lmao. It just pushes more people out.

Platinum
08-25-2015, 07:11 PM
Reading this thread makes me realize we are one hard bunch to please.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 07:14 PM
Reading this thread makes me realize we are one hard bunch to please.

And yet it is ironically very easy to fix all this.

CAW0139
08-25-2015, 07:24 PM
And yet it is ironically very easy to fix all this.

I may have missed it, theres a lot of comments, but what is the very easy fix to all this?

Houdini
08-25-2015, 07:31 PM
As to keep on topic so I won't get a finger wag from anyone :P I've just realized I have no clue why a draft is needed. Is it because of low numbers? The public rosters for each army are almost the same size, give or take a few players. Or is it because no squad can beat VbD? I'm confused!

LOL. I love you Platinum.

I think the real catalyst for a draft was last Battle Night. Whether it is needed or not is what is up for debate. If you look at the stat book from Sunday night you'll see red won two games plus one forfeit (which they were losing some 320 - 40 but then blue dropped the connection).

The rest of the games were complete landslides with blue well over doubling the score of red in nearly every game. I think putting the blame on VbD here is probably wrong. It's almost like the entirety of blue army is just significantly better than red right now. Even Umbra who was being stomped on during the beginning of the war just got better to the point where the list of really good blue teams is the entire blue army and the list of really good red teams is, well, not the entire army.

I can't speak from red's perspective, but this past weekend seems to just have been the last straw on the skill imbalance issues which have been hitting the community consistently since Rec3.

- - - Updated - - -


And yet it is ironically very easy to fix all this.

I'm not sure I can agree with this one.

- - - Updated - - -


Reading this thread makes me realize we are one hard bunch to please.

Just imagine if we tried to have this conversation when the community was more than 30 people strong. We can't even get this small of a group to agree on anything.

silversleek
08-25-2015, 07:31 PM
To be fair, the biggest reason VbD is so good is because of their chemistry together. They play with one another so much that they know each others playing styles. You make them sound like they're gods among men (granted they are very good) but they have faults too. The entire purpose behind a team is to have players that compliment your own playing style and playing to your strengths/picking up where you can't. VbD is great, no doubt, but each member isn't a master of all trades. Velocity could be considered to be the best individual players ever to join FC seeing how they were, and still are, among the best Halo 4 players of All time (http://prntscr.com/88uq7n). However, they were pushed around by VbD still. Skill goes a long way, but the cohesion and chemistry goes much farther.

Community shouldn't punish a group of friends for being able to work like a well oiled machine, even if it means its costing the other side.

How velocity made the "top four players" list I will never know. They were so bad for a supposed "god squad". But I agree, no group of friends should be punished for just "being good". Anyone can obtain vbd level (on an individual player strength level) if they put the time and effort into training themselves. The rest is just finding people you work well together with. @anarchy, the day that vbd is removed/split up is the day I leave fc. That sets a rather disgusting precedent that I honestly don't want to be apart of. avoidance isn't the issue. stop running, face your fears.


LOL. I love you Platinum.

I think the real catalyst for a draft was last Battle Night. Whether it is needed or not is what is up for debate. If you look at the stat book from Sunday night you'll see red won two games plus one forfeit (which they were losing some 320 - 40 but then blue dropped the connection).

The rest of the games were complete landslides with blue well over doubling the score of red in nearly every game. I think putting the blame on VbD here is probably wrong. It's almost like the entirety of blue army is just significantly better than red right now. Even Umbra who was being stomped on during the beginning of the war just got better to the point where the list of really good blue teams is the entire blue army and the list of really good red teams is, well, not the entire army.

I can't speak from red's perspective, but this past weekend seems to just have been the last straw on the skill imbalance issues which have been hitting the community consistently since Rec3.

Honestly, good on umbra. They have certainly improved. Vague memories too. The issue isn't in raw skill balance, it's that blue squads have been working to get better, while most redd members can barely be bothered to get on during battlenights, let alone multiple practices during the week. I'm guilty of this myself, and I'll be the first to admit my skills aren't nearly as sharp as they used to be.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 07:32 PM
I'm not sure I can agree with this one.

Just imagine if we tried to have this conversation when the community was more than 30 people strong. We can't even get this small of a group to agree on anything.

That's the point. The logistics are easy. The pissing matches are not.

Barry Soap
08-25-2015, 07:34 PM
It's almost like the entirety of blue army is just significantly better than red right now.

Okay it's easy to ignore comments about skill but please don't pretend like every player on BLUE is the bee's knees like god damn...

It's like you're trying to provoke a response.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 07:37 PM
@anarchy, the day that vbd is removed/split up is the day I leave fc.

I literally specifically stated that wasn't a necessity.

Houdini
08-25-2015, 08:09 PM
Okay it's easy to ignore comments about skill but please don't pretend like every player on BLUE is the bee's knees like god damn...

It's like you're trying to provoke a response.

I'm not trying to provoke a response. I was trying to explain to Platinum why this topic become so heated almost out of no-where. Look at the stat book. It does look like blue is just significantly better than red right now. It isn't necessarily true and based on what I'm hearing people in red are attributing it to practice. Are you saying there is no skill imbalance? I sure don't like playing games were the score is 400-0 on either side. It's simply not fun.

silversleek
08-25-2015, 08:33 PM
I literally specifically stated that wasn't a necessity.

I skim, otherwise I wouldn't have time to go through 6 page threads, I must have missed that as the rest of your post seemed to imply that's what you wanted.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 08:36 PM
I skim, otherwise I wouldn't have time to go through 6 page threads, I must have missed that as the rest of your post seemed to imply that's what you wanted.

It implies something should happen to the unit so it doesn't ruin everyone else's experience.

There are many ways to do it without breaking them up. Sadly I doubt they'd use those ways either.

Maxdoggy
08-25-2015, 08:41 PM
It implies something should happen to the unit so it doesn't ruin everyone else's experience.

There are many ways to do it without breaking them up. Sadly I doubt they'd use those ways either.

Use your words, Anarchy. List the ways, don't just talk around them.

TeriyakiSoul
08-25-2015, 08:48 PM
I vote for ending the war and focusing on recruiting for Halo 5.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 08:50 PM
Use your words, Anarchy. List the ways, don't just talk around them.

Once again. I literally gave an example of one way. Others joining VbD and playing with them who aren't of the high skill caliber level. Maybe the squad accepts recruits for the first time in 3 years. Perhaps they merge with a smaller squad of the opposite skill level.

VerbotenDonkey
08-25-2015, 09:26 PM
And yet it is ironically very easy to fix all this.

I agree with Anarchy. The fix is buy me a damn Xbox so I can make another huge Squad and all your problems are solved.

Houdini
08-25-2015, 09:31 PM
I agree with Anarchy. The fix is buy me a damn Xbox so I can make another huge Squad and all your problems are solved.

Yeah, but if you made a squad it would be bigger than both of the armies. I can't see how that fixes anything. It would be like Donkey's Army vs. Redd + Blue

VerbotenDonkey
08-25-2015, 09:40 PM
Yeah, but if you made a squad it would be bigger than both of the armies. I can't see how that fixes anything. It would be like Donkey's Army vs. Redd + Blue

And thus the problem we ran into with Imperial Office of Naval Intelligence. :c

However, would you rather have more people or your current situation? :P

Houdini
08-25-2015, 09:44 PM
And thus the problem we ran into with Imperial Office of Naval Intelligence. :c

However, would you rather have more people or your current situation? :P

You win Donkey. More people it is! More people => more ideas => maybe we get a solution everybody can agree on

UnfoldedFreedom
08-25-2015, 09:56 PM
Once again. I literally gave an example of one way. Others joining VbD and playing with them who aren't of the high skill caliber level. Maybe the squad accepts recruits for the first time in 3 years. Perhaps they merge with a smaller squad of the opposite skill level.

Its easy to see only what you wanna see. But VbD has mixed with a lot of squads and we have used a lot of "fillers" since MCC came out and the Halo population dropped. We've even played several 3v4s this war. Its hard to accept people into vbd because we literally talk shit to each other all game and most people are sensitivity or they dont have the same sense of humor as us. Not only that, but we don't practice, at all. No new recruit would want to join a squad and not participate in squad activities. There is no retention in that. Recruits would just get bored. It also makes no sense for us to steal or take another's hard earned recruits.

I also like how you conveniently left out us taking in Md, Blayze and akward. Former squad members of the legendary redwatch.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 10:09 PM
Its easy to see only what you wanna see. But VbD has mixed with a lot of squads and we have used a lot of "fillers" since MCC came out and the Halo population dropped. We've even played several 3v4s this war. Its hard to accept people into vbd because we literally talk shit to each other all game and most people are sensitivity or they dont have the same sense of humor as us. Not only that, but we don't practice, at all. No new recruit would want to join a squad and not participate in squad activities. There is no retention in that. Recruits would just get bored. It also makes no sense for us to steal or take another's hard earned recruits.

I also like how you conveniently left out us taking in Md, Blayze and akward. Former squad members of the legendary redwatch.

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that VbD has made a genuine effort to fix people not wanting to play against you. Picking up 3-4 people who were above average players when they joined VbD isn't going to help that much.

Guzzie
08-25-2015, 10:17 PM
I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that VbD has made a genuine effort to fix people not wanting to play against you. Picking up 3-4 people who were above average players when they joined VbD isn't going to help that much.
They actually improved when they started playing with us bud. They were very interested in improving at the game and we helped them. They would ask us to go over their films, and we did. They put effort into improving their skills. Around the same time actually, Corbin (UnfoldedFreedom) and I offered to help the entire community. We offered to go over their films and even do map walkthroughs with anyone interested. Sadly, we got no replies from anyone.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 10:31 PM
They actually improved when they started playing with us bud. They were very interested in improving at the game and we helped them. They would ask us to go over their films, and we did. They put effort into improving their skills. Around the same time actually, Corbin (UnfoldedFreedom) and I offered to help the entire community. We offered to go over their films and even do map walkthroughs with anyone interested. Sadly, we got no replies from anyone.

They joined after they were Second Nature, which was already the 2nd best squad in your army. So you merged the 2nd and 1st best together. Real equalizer there. They hadn't been in REDWATCH for a few wars by then and had already trained and become competitive players.

I don't see how offering to make others better is relevant to those who have no interest in playing in that manner. People shouldn't have to be at that level to have fun in FC.

UnfoldedFreedom
08-25-2015, 10:56 PM
They joined after they were Second Nature, which was already the 2nd best squad in your army. So you merged the 2nd and 1st best together. Real equalizer there. They hadn't been in REDWATCH for a few wars by then and had already trained and become competitive players.

I don't see how offering to make others better is relevant to those who have no interest in playing in that manner. People shouldn't have to be at that level to have fun in FC.

The reason they became second nature was because they wanted to practice with vbd. We trained them when they were still in red watch.

Guzzie
08-25-2015, 10:57 PM
They joined after they were Second Nature, which was already the 2nd best squad in your army. So you merged the 2nd and 1st best together. Real equalizer there. They hadn't been in REDWATCH for a few wars by then and had already trained and become competitive players.
Lol. I think your memory is failing you. First of all, we were helping them out while they were in Redwatch. It was actually Deaf Orangutan who led their fire team and he was very interested in improving his and his squad's skill. They then moved on to form Second Nature. When the whole fiasco with Deaf happened (rest in peace) and their squad disbanded, we took them in because we had become good friends and they felt they had nowhere to go. By no means were they the second best squad. In fact, it was Voodoo (if my memory serves me right, Vanguard?) that was the second best squad in Red at the time, and some even thought they were better than VbD. Oh, and Second Nature wasn't a squad for "a couple of wars", but good try. Nice to see you twisting things to strengthen your point however.



I don't see how offering to make others better is relevant to those who have no interest in playing in that manner. People shouldn't have to be at that level to have fun in FC.
I do agree with you on this one though, but it does show that people would much rather complain about skill than try to do something about it themselves. It's what I call CoD syndrome; look it up, I read it in a book.

Anarchy
08-25-2015, 11:05 PM
Lol. I think your memory is failing you. First of all, we were helping them out while they were in Redwatch. It was actually Deaf Orangutan who led their fire team and he was very interested in improving his and his squad's skill. They then moved on to form Second Nature. When the whole fiasco with Deaf happened (rest in peace) and their squad disbanded, we took them in because we had become good friends and they felt they had nowhere to go. By no means were they the second best squad. In fact, it was Voodoo (if my memory serves me right, Vanguard?) that was the second best squad in Red at the time, and some even thought they were better than VbD. Oh, and Second Nature wasn't a squad for "a couple of wars", but good try. Nice to see you twisting things to strengthen your point however.


I do agree with you on this one though, but it does show that people would much rather complain about skill than try to do something about it themselves. It's what I call CoD syndrome; look it up, I read it in a book.

...But they joined VbD when they were already "trained" so to speak. Which is exactly what I said. Which is the point, since your argument is that they joined VbD as lower skilled people, which is false.

Vanguard and Voodoo are from Reach.

Second Nature was a squad for at least 2 full wars. And they had significant winning records in both. Regardless of who you consider #2 or #3, the point is they were an above average group of players joining into VbD.


I do agree with you on this one though, but it does show that people would much rather complain about skill than try to do something about it themselves

I consider coming here to try and make change, or leaving to avoid the toxic games as doing something about it. People are here for fun. If they aren't having it, they'll complain, or leave. Not change their definition of fun to match someone else's.

silversleek
08-26-2015, 02:38 AM
Its easy to see only what you wanna see. But VbD has mixed with a lot of squads and we have used a lot of "fillers" since MCC came out and the Halo population dropped. We've even played several 3v4s this war. Its hard to accept people into vbd because we literally talk shit to each other all game and most people are sensitivity or they dont have the same sense of humor as us. Not only that, but we don't practice, at all. No new recruit would want to join a squad and not participate in squad activities. There is no retention in that. Recruits would just get bored. It also makes no sense for us to steal or take another's hard earned recruits.

I also like how you conveniently left out us taking in Md, Blayze and akward. Former squad members of the legendary redwatch.

Hm, it's been so long since I last played with you guys I forgot, but yeah, you do have a rather abrasive sense of humour that's not exactly for everyone. Kind of a fair point to be honest.



I don't see how offering to make others better is relevant to those who have no interest in playing in that manner. People shouldn't have to be at that level to have fun in FC.

Here's another source of confusion that seems to run rampant here. Battles are competitive. It's literally designed that way, two armies are competing against eachother to win. You don't have to partake in the competitive side of FC though, there's a lot to do other than battles. Or, there should be. We've kind of lost the casual side though. #bringbackdailyzombiesand monstertrucks

If people don't want to take the time to get better at a competitive activity, they have no right to complain when they lose at that competitive activity. If I go to a weight lifting competition, I'm not going to complain about coming in last place, because I can lift -maybe- 50 pounds. If I wanted to compete in one, I would train my ass off until I could do it.

You're completely correct, they shouldn't have to be at that level to have fun in FC. They just shouldn't expect to win without work.

Silko
08-26-2015, 03:15 AM
Vanguard and Voodoo are from Reach.

Only partly true. Vanguard and Voodoo moved on to Halo 4 after the end of REACH and Vanquish then also became a squad under Resistance. Voodoo then died and the remaining members where split into Vanquish and Vanguard. As to Guzzie, you are correct that Voodoo was the 2nd best squad in REDD then it was Vanquish after Voodoo fell and Vanquish became the best squad in REDD. Best W/L in the army and even got Prof Blastoise all jelly

NervyDestroyer
08-26-2015, 08:08 AM
This is definitely still happening in Blue. Look at Umbra. They were a brand new squad with almost 100% recruits at the start of the war.
Week 1:
Renegade vs. Umbra - Occupation - 410 - 217 Redd
Equinox vs. Umbra - Conflict - 99 - 31 Redd
Equinox vs. Umbra - Asset 369 - 261 Redd

Week 7 (this past weekend)
Renegade vs. Umbra - Ricochet - 410 - 50 Blue
Terminus (Ghosts) vs. Umbra - Liberation 5 - 2 Blue

They started playing together and have gotten much better of the the course of the war. Granted they did drop some of their lower skilled players (probably because they were being stomped on so hard at the beginning of the war), but the people who stayed built chemistry and showed that it is still possible for squads to improve and turn themselves around.

Just to say, these are corrupted results. Two people lagged out during the first game against Renegade and had it not been for my orders to stop running up the score, it would have looked much worse. Just a little something I'd like to correct... Also the second game had much different Renegade personnel in it than the first game. You're looking at numbers and not variables and if Statistics has taught me anything, variables variables variables

CAW0139
08-26-2015, 10:20 AM
We offered to go over their films and even do map walkthroughs with anyone interested. Sadly, we got no replies from anyone.

Can I take you up on this offer? I never got it...........

Nicholas Sapien
08-26-2015, 11:58 AM
Can I take you up on this offer? I never got it...........

That offer was a long time ago, you can still take up the offer if they are willing to help you out

CAW0139
08-26-2015, 01:27 PM
It's what I call CoD syndrome; look it up, I read it in a book.

ummmm, when i looked up CoD syndrome thats not at all what came up...............

Metkil5685
08-26-2015, 07:51 PM
Just want to drop in real quick and say that I am personally very grateful for all the feedback you fine people have generated over the last two days. I'm sure the rest of the War Council is grateful as well. We are going to be meeting soon and will come to a decision at some point tonight. Once decisions have been made, I'll be posting a FC Update with decisions, any important information from the meeting, and what the FC Web Dev team is going to up to this coming weeks.

Stay tuned and thanks everyone! Much <3