Manifest Feedback

[Sangheili Ekim]

After playing several times on Manifest tonight I have built a strong hate for this map. This hate is directed towards Blue army's Side of the map Having a considerably higher ground than that of the Redd's side, making it a great advantage for them. It gives them the best view of the most important part of the map, the bridge. Any Redd army member caught on the bridge will almost certainly die. This forces us to take cover around the corner(Redd ramp side) everytime. Our grav lift and man cannon make us open targets every time we use them. My second reason for hating the map is due to spawning. Once my team was pushed back far enough, Blue had all angles on us covered. Therefore everytime we spawned we were shot at or killed within seconds. Another problem was gametype selection. Hill 30 was a good advantage for Blue because, like i said before, They had high ground. The hill was set on the bridge making it easy for them to shoot down on and cover easily. Conflict is also a given, since a slayer game.

So thats what I have problems with. If anyone else has any comments, feedback, rants, then fire away men.

[VerbotenDonkey]

I think some larger covering on the side of the bridge facing BLUE would help by taking away visual, although it might affect KOTH.

[Mythonian]

It will be reviewed and adjusted appropriately. Expect multiple changes.

A blog feature will be made about it once it has been done, same with all map updates.

[UNLUCKY NUM13ER]

I completely agree with everything sangheili said. Also when the blues rushed us i found myself spawning on their side of the map, and dropping in the middle of a bunch of angry blues didnt help my life expectancy. One other thin, on the redd base, whenever the blues flanked us from the left side and they threw grenades i didnt have much to do in order to avoid them. It was very tight quarters and i often found myself getting killed that way.

[AftershocK]

Map sucks all around. Should be replaced by sword base.

[Blackhawk570]

Definitely Blue has a higher spawn on this map and can easily guy down middle bridge if they have to. Another thing it is 100 times more easier for Blue to go behind REDD's spawn because of the building in REDD's spawn. In my only game on this map I was easily able to sneak around their base and get to were their sniper was multiple times due to building in REDD spawn that leads up to their sniper. On the other hand REDD doesn't have an "easy" way to get to where the Blue Sniper usually sits they can't go through middle bridge because of no support and only other way is through their left side which is perfectly exposed so GETTING to their sniper is merely impossible. I don't know what can be done to fix this map I honestly don't believe you could fix this map and I agree with Aftershock said and believe it should be replaced

[UNLUCKY NUM13ER]

you know blackhawk i'm pretty sure you're the one that kept taking me out if you played the very last match of the day. and i third aftershocks idea.

[Blackhawk570]

you know blackhawk i'm pretty sure you're the one that kept taking me out if you played the very last match of the day. and i third aftershocks idea.
I kept abusing the ramp in REDDs base and kept throwing plasmas as people would try to go down it

[HeavyArms]

Isnt this the one that Cody said was unbalanced in favor of REDD? lol

[VerbotenDonkey]

Isnt this the one that Cody said was unbalanced in favor of REDD? lol

Yes although in BLUE army practice on Saturday, everyone was able to successfully defend red sides flag in two flag.

And Blackhawk, there IS an easy way to get to BLUEs sniper, Max did it several times. Not going to reveal the secret to our enemies though =P

[Mr Funktastiiic]

Not being rude but when the blues had a practice on it there was no complaints, I played on the redd side and found it easy to counter blues... I think redds are just moaning about it again lool

[Ex Zen Mute]

Not being rude but when the blues had a practice on it there was no complaints, I played on the redd side and found it easy to counter blues... I think redds are just moaning about it again loolNot to sound condescending but, did you face competent BLUEs?

[Gargoyle]

Not being rude but when the blues had a practice on it there was no complaints, I played on the redd side and found it easy to counter blues... I think redds are just moaning about it again lool

The only problem with that is that some blues were complaining about it as well. Why would blues be moaning about a win?

[Sangheili Ekim]

The only problem with that is that some blues were complaining about it as well. Why would blues be moaning about a win?

And with that I will add this. Why would I moan about a win too? Me, along with other VbD members won the first match on this map and we still bashed it.

[Andimion]

Ahhhhh, just like old times. Maps being unbalanced in favor of Blue. Classic. XD

[Nocte]

Ahhhhh, just like old times. Maps being unbalanced in favor of Blue. Classic. XD


ahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Hectic Tac Toe]

In conflict me, along with other VbD members, lost 150-61. In order to prove that the loss came from the maps unbalanced nature and not a lack of skill or practice on the map we could simply play with the same or similar teams with switched spawns. That is, if the people we lost to will agree to what would undoubtedly not be very fun for them (and yes, even if they deny it, they know what would happen if the spawns were switched). If anyone was to forge the map to make it fair on gametypes that include fixed spawns throughout (not one flag/one bomb) the map would require a complete overhaul. It would be best and easiest to scrap Manifest completely and forge a new, level, map.

[Guzzie]

Oh man, where to begin with this map. I guess I'll start with initial spawns: Blue spawns on a hill side, only a few steps to the sniper on their right and even a shorter distance to a particular power position (I'll call this rocks) on their left where they can see clearly the center of the map and have complete cover. On the other hand, Red spawns in a room at possibly the lowest point of the map, where the only ways of are to walk in fron of the base (huge open field) or walk through a closed ramp on the back of the room (needless to say, it takes red a lot longer to get to their sniper and being placed in a room to start with, red has no direct lines of sight to anywhere in the map). This gives blue a significant set up right of the start, as they already have positions to being shooting red, in fact, blue sniper is closer to their spawn, meaning they can get to it quicker, and from their sniper hut, they can easily see our sniper, which makes it difficult for red members to get our sniper in the first place.

Overall Spawns: Given that both bases are designed differently (red base is made of significantly more forge objects than blues) it is only natural that it be more "hallway". Even after we get out or our basement room (spawn room which I will cal suicide room), the rest of the base is pretty linear, which a huge walls on the back, making it really easy to nade from to center. if one throws a nade from pretty much anywhere on the map, it will bounce from that huge wall on the back and get caught in the few cover spots that we have along out base.

For those of you who have not played the map, here is how it is laid out, very simply put; blue has the high ground off spawn, their initial spawn is even higher that that of the center structure, which is higher than the highest point in owr base, this means that at all times, red is fighting looking up at a well covered enemy. What I am trying to say is that if we were even to take full control of center (which is higher or taller in comparison to red base) we would still have to fight them when they spawn on their base, which is still considerably higher that center structure.

Given this significant advantage that blue had, it was very easy for the to lock us in inside our base, and given the very few cover points, is was very easy for them to spawn kill us, which brings me to my next point, spawns after being spawn camped: Once you die, the spawn system responds in a way similar to this "SOMEONE DIES HERE, LETS SPAWN THEM AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE FROM THAT DEATH", that, in a nutshell is how the spawn system in reach works (of course it takes a few other issues into consideration, like teammates deaths and enemy position but overall it is that). This meant that when the entire red team is getting spawn camped at our base and dying in out base, our base spawns are getting blocked, and we were forced to spawn on blue side, on their open field. This is probably what i found to be the most ridiculous, to spawn in a significantly open base, to spawn on the most open side of enemy territory which by the way is still lower that their initial spawn and center structure.
Because of that, it becomes extremely difficult, near impossible for red to gain top center control. There are two ways to get to top center from red side, one is from the right side and the other from the left. The right side is in the form of a lift, this lift if extremely open and if you know how lifts work you know there is a margin of time where you are in mid air where all you can do is wait until you land. During this timeframe, one can easily get shot from their rocks (which is only a few steps to the lefts right of their spawn) and from their sniper hut, and overall from anywhere form their base to be completely honest. This makes this right side attempt at top center pretty useless. the other side, on the left side is composed of a ramp that runs almost parallel to the center structure and makes it very difficult to get an angle on anyone, needless to say that this a a very narrow space and a favorite to be naded, although that ramp and spot are the only ones in the map that are truly equal to blue sides' (meaning blue has that same ramp on their right side). This makes that ramp the only way red can trully push top center.
Blue also has two way of getting to top center, one on the left and one on the right. The right side is exactly the same os reds' a ramp that runs parallel to center structure, but when it comes to the other side (the left side) the have a ramp, instead of a lift, which makes it easier for them to push it while being in cover (the ramp itself has edges that give a little cover, not only that but you have the freedom of stopping while you are walking on the ramp contrasting from the lift, once you are in the lift you have no where to go but up), this gives them an easier way to get to top center from that ramp. Not only that but they have complete cover from their sniper hut and their rocks. Oh and another thing, from the top of that ramp on their left, blue can shoot and nade reds only attempt at top center, which is that parallel ramp on reds left side.
This gives blue almost guaranteed control of top center, and given their position on the map (their initial spawn), top center (center structure) is less of a power position than that of their initial spawn, meaning that blue doesn't really have to push center at all, they can easily hold their base, for it is the highest point on the map, and they have significant cover, their only reason for pushing center is to spawn camp red, which is extremely easy given all that I have talked to up until now.

The only other options for red are to push left, which would be toward their sniper hut, but that journey takes you through open field, and you can once again get shot from anywhere on their base, and there is literally no cover on that field. And the last way would be to push bottom of the center structure, which would only take you to their front of their base, which is another open field and very close to where we spawned when we were getting spawn camped on red base.

This basically sums up this map and how absolutely and ridiculously terrible it is, I, along with all of VbD refuse to play this map ever again (unless we spawn on blue side, and that would be just to prove a point). i don't care if this map was play tested, beta tested, etc, you can mold a piece of shit all you want, in the end, it is still a piece of shit. Oh an one more thing, I can guarantee that if that map stays on the battle map, that it will never, be taken by red.

I am sure I forgot a few things, but to be honest, I am sick of writing about this map. if you would like my help and/or opinions/suggestions when fixing this map, please let me know, i would be happy to.

Thanks,
GuzzieStyle

[Gargoyle]

Wall of text ^^^^^

Look, this can be easily broken down into one thing. One problem. The same problem in fact that we had last war. We need to test these maps to the very bits and pieces of them. You should never begin testing maps after they've been released as being attacked by an army. This is the same thing I said last war, and I will continue to stay with that point this year. Test. test. test. So these problems don't occur. And btw, cause I know people will say this. When trying to test something to its full potential, in anything not just maps, you need opinions fro all over the spectrum. Don't rely on just blues. Don't even rely on what Guzzie has said. What he said might be taken as wrong to another. We need multiple different parties of multiple different people and test these maps right. Not just play a few games on them and move weapons and ammo around.

[GhostHammer]

Like I've said since beginning of time, default maps, matchmaking maps, DLC, and Forged Maps from places like Fore Hub that have amazing ratings and have been tested by loads of people.

[Sangheili Ekim]

I think for Asymmetric maps like this we should restrict certain gametypes. It's obviously one sided so just play one sided gametypes on it. Just something to think about.

[silversleek]

Wall of text ^^^^^

Look, this can be easily broken down into one thing. One problem. The same problem in fact that we had last war. We need to test these maps to the very bits and pieces of them. You should never begin testing maps after they've been released as being attacked by an army. This is the same thing I said last war, and I will continue to stay with that point this year. Test. test. test. So these problems don't occur. And btw, cause I know people will say this. When trying to test something to its full potential, in anything not just maps, you need opinions fro all over the spectrum. Don't rely on just blues. Don't even rely on what Guzzie has said. What he said might be taken as wrong to another. We need multiple different parties of multiple different people and test these maps right. Not just play a few games on them and move weapons and ammo around.

the problem is, even when it's tested, nobody speaks up or pays attention to faults. it's only when battles that people (usually the losing side) starts to point them out

[Gargoyle]

the problem is, even when it's tested, nobody speaks up or pays attention to faults. it's only when battles that people (usually the losing side) starts to point them out
Not an argument at all. In no way does that justify to not test or to not test enough. This is why you need to bring it up to multiple different people. And when I say multiple, I'm talking at the very least 30 different people. You cannot tell me that out of 30 people from different bias', that no one will speak up.

[Ex Zen Mute]

I think for Asymmetric maps like this we should restrict certain gametypes. It's obviously one sided so just play one sided gametypes on it. Just something to think about.This.

Look at this post. Asym map, Asym gametypes. Sym map, sym gametypes.

Hill 30 is a sym game type. Conflict is a gametype that needs consideration on maps that falsly act a sym maps. Like this one we just played.


A good asym map that holds certain qualities that manifest poses is Highground. One team as the higher ground, less choices at certain paths and weapons.
The other team has more paths and more choices of weapons.

Manifest tries to make both teams even when it can't be since having the HIGHERGROUND itself it an advantage.

[UNLUCKY NUM13ER]

I have a suggestion, remake the map...but on a flat surface. It will obviously look a little different, but if we keep the general basic layout of the map that will make everyone happy. The forge department will still have the map they worked so hard on and "hopefully" it will be more balanced. However no matter what is done to the map, i completely agree with gargoyle. When the map is fixed and or changed it needs to be tested to death. With a lot of people, playing both sides of the map & every gametype should be tried during the testing period.

[Sangheili Ekim]

I have a suggestion, remake the map...but on a flat surface. It will obviously look a little different, but if we keep the general basic layout of the map that will make everyone happy. The forge department will still have the map they worked so hard on and "hopefully" it will be more balanced. However no matter what is done to the map, i completely agree with gargoyle. When the map is fixed and or changed it needs to be tested to death. With a lot of people, playing both sides of the map & every gametype should be tried during the testing period.

I like that Idea. Remaking it wouldnt be hard either since the structures are already made. You pretty much have to take them somewhere else in Forge world that suits the idea of the map better. FYI, The cannon on top of Red base is aiming straight at the Canyon wall.

[Mythonian]

Remaking the map is no small feat. Simply placing it on flatter ground won't balance it map, it would grossly overcompensate for the current imbalance.

As I said near the top:

It will be reviewed and adjusted appropriately. Expect multiple changes.

Layout, appearance, position, and other changes. I've already spent about 2 hours on it and am about 10% done or so.

[RENGADE 0F FUNK]

Yes although in BLUE army practice on Saturday, everyone was able to successfully defend red sides flag in two flag.

And Blackhawk, there IS an easy way to get to BLUEs sniper, Max did it several times. Not going to reveal the secret to our enemies though =P

yea that bastard aftershock kept doing it to me lol

[AftershocK]

yea that bastard aftershock kept doing it to me lol

;)