Suspension

[Hectic Tac Toe]

Supposedly, I've been handed a two-week suspension from battle nights. Being completely honest, I wasn't planning on being at battles for two weeks because of real life plans. However, the manner in which I've been suspended is completely ridiculous and needs to be dealt with.
What happened: During VbD's first game on Manifest, hill 30 I think, one player on BLUE (Da Whoosh) was, according to comments from his team after the battle night was finished, becoming frustrated over their inability to control the game despite their obvious advantage spawn-position wise. He became so frustrated that he decided to break rules and T-bag me after managing to assassinate me. After the game I sent him a message that said one word: Sad. (implying that it was sad that he became to frustrated at being out-played that he resorted to childish T-bagging. He sent me a message back that I can't quote exactly (deleted it) but it said something along the lines of: Yeah, it's sad that I can't play a full game because my connection sucks (he disconnected roughly 10 seconds before the game was - mathematically - over). I replied with another one word message that read: Bad. (implying that it was bad that he couldn't finish a game because of his connection, NOT implying that he is bad or did bad or ANYTHING along those lines that could be considered talking trash). Anyways...supposedly, later in the night, he reported this incident as me talking trash to him through XbL messages. Also, adding on to that, I don't know who reported me for this (not sure if it was Da Whoosh or whoever), I was supposedly talking trash in lobbies before games. I can assure everyone that I did not talk trash in lobbies and I can have people from both REDD and BLUE back me up on that. The only BLUE member that I directed anything towards (unless I was answering someones question or something along those lines) was Crozion/Corrosion FA/Steven. As some of you know, Crozion is friends with most members of VbD (probably more so friends with me than anyone else in REDD) and I don't talk to trash to him. WHAT PROBABLY SHOULD HAPPEN: My suspension should be completely lifted and anyone and everyone who reported me (LIED) should be punished (NOT LIGHTLY) in order to avoid any future incidents that could be similar to this one. LYING or EXAGERRATING BY EXTREME MARGINS should not be tolerated at all in the community ESPECIALLY when it is meant to have someone (in this case, me) WRONGFULLY punished. What has happened is completely disrespectful to not only me but the entire community and whoever was involved in the LYING should be ashamed and I want you all to know that your mothers would, undoubtedly, not approve of your idiotic and immature behavior and saltiness. Sorry for what I think will come out as a wall of text, I have no idea how to format a thread or post or whatever. To answer everyone that knows me's "yo ethan u mad bro?" YES I am mad, bro.

[Mythonian]

Grab a clip of the t-bag and we'll work from there to resolve this.

[Vestige]

This has happened to me in the past. With certain people in this community, I wish I could mention... They know who they are. Get the clip, talk to myth, and you should be good.

[Blackhawk570]

One thing is you admit to saying sad, and members of that game told me you kept saying sad after the game was over when you were in the post game lobby. Da Whoosh dced in that game so you were saying "sad" to the other members of that lobby which is disrespectful to those members who shouldn't been a part of yours and Whoosh's problem. If you can get a clip of this tea-bagging then there should be justice to both sides and both sides should be given some sort of punishment, but if you have problems with a member within the army don't take it out on other innocent members of the army and be the bigger man and just don't say anything next time and bring it up with an Officer or a forerunner


Heres the game: http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/GameStats.aspx?gameid=822 570185

[MedeDust]

It would have been allot better if you wouldn't have complained about your suspension and just provide a clip. Your suspension was justifiable. Now, please, allow us to act upon your accusation.

[Nocte]

Ya FC's justice system can be a bit hasty and inaccurate in what they do, plus I know from experience (with Ninjaboltz case) that people like to ignore facts and look at people's opinions and go from there.

[VerbotenDonkey]

I only reported it with the information provided to me. None of them told me he tbagged. Also, several members Corrosion was playing with took offense to the after game comments, thinking it was directed at them. If you know someone won't take offense the comments, like Corrosion, just message them afterwards.

[Guzzie]

Grab a clip of the t-bag and we'll work from there to resolve this.
What I find ridiculous is the fact that this was not asked of us to begin with. I find the dishing out of suspensions without asking both parties to be completely childish and irresponsible. I was told by Fuzzy that the person responsible for giving out punishments is Khublam, and if that is the case, this was handled extremely poorly, especially given that Khublam is a forerunner, and an experienced one at that.

It seems to me that people are trying to get VbD members in trouble by reaching for some kind of suspension. The battles before the last, I was supposedly reported by someone in blue for tea bagging simply because I was Ghandi hopping in a match; I don't know about you, but that is ridiculous, to try an turn a Ghandi hop into a tea bag , "SAD". Everyone in VbD knows not to tea bag, and when we win, we win with class.

Also, when talking to Fuzzy, I asked "who can I talk to about this suspension?", he replied, "Khublam, and if you talk to him, it will turn into a issue where you will need both party members and it will take a while" (or something along those lines). I mean isn't that what is supposed to happen anyways, if anything you should seek out the truth by approaching both party members instead of waiting for a response after a punishment is given, in my mind, a two week suspension is a big deal, and should not be handled lighly. I can see this becoming a huge problem, especially if someone doesn't like another person in the same or opposite army. All one would have to do is get friends to say someone tea bagged him or talked trash to him, and if the person in charge of punishments will only listen to one side of the story, then punishments will be dished out unfairly. Please fix this before this become an issue.

If you have any questions or would like to talk to anyone that was involved, please let me know, I will be happy to sit in a lobby and talk things through. Also, the clip of the tea bag will be placed on my file in order for you to see, I will have it clipped so that you see that the kid in blue did tea bag, and did quit the game because of frustration.

Thank you,
GuzzieStyle

EDIT: one more thing that i find a bit weird, when people start to argue on the forums, or talk trash to each other on the forums, they are told by forerunners or fieldmarshalls to take it to PMs or messages, if that is the case, then shouldn't a personal message conversation not matter?

[Blackhawk570]

EDIT: one more thing that i find a bit weird, when people start to argue on the forums, or talk trash to each other on the forums, they are told by forerunners or fieldmarshalls to take it to PMs or messages, if that is the case, then shouldn't a personal message conversation not matter?
Talking trash is not allowed period. But if they have a personal conflict with another person they rather them talk about it through pms rather than publicly displayed on the forums

[Andimion]

Wow, a two week for saying sad?! That's fucking sad.. This is one of the many reasons there is so many problems with this community. If I didn't know better, id say there was some form of conspiracy to eliminate VbD.

There is so much I have to say. But I have to be careful these days
Appearently Reds can get banned for breathing wrong..

[Blackhawk570]

Wow, a two week for saying sad?! That's fucking sad.. This is one of the many reasons there is so many problems with this community.
The bottom line it was disrespect. No matter what word was used it is still disrespecting members of the community. Certain people may take it more personal, but we had a new recruit in that battle and we don't want him to think FC is going to be like that.

[VerbotenDonkey]

Also Andi, the disrespect rule is onpar with tbagging, which was decided was a two week suspension from Battle Nights.

[Mythonian]

What I find ridiculous is the fact that this was not asked of us to begin with. I find the dishing out of suspensions without asking both parties to be completely childish and irresponsible. I was told by Fuzzy that the person responsible for giving out punishments is Khublam, and if that is the case, this was handled extremely poorly, especially given that Khublam is a forerunner, and an experienced one at that.

It seems to me that people are trying to get VbD members in trouble by reaching for some kind of suspension. The battles before the last, I was supposedly reported by someone in blue for tea bagging simply because I was Ghandi hopping in a match; I don't know about you, but that is ridiculous, to try an turn a Ghandi hop into a tea bag , "SAD". Everyone in VbD knows not to tea bag, and when we win, we win with class.

Also, when talking to Fuzzy, I asked "who can I talk to about this suspension?", he replied, "Khublam, and if you talk to him, it will turn into a issue where you will need both party members and it will take a while" (or something along those lines). I mean isn't that what is supposed to happen anyways, if anything you should seek out the truth by approaching both party members instead of waiting for a response after a punishment is given, in my mind, a two week suspension is a big deal, and should not be handled lighly. I can see this becoming a huge problem, especially if someone doesn't like another person in the same or opposite army. All one would have to do is get friends to say someone tea bagged him or talked trash to him, and if the person in charge of punishments will only listen to one side of the story, then punishments will be dished out unfairly. Please fix this before this become an issue.

If you have any questions or would like to talk to anyone that was involved, please let me know, I will be happy to sit in a lobby and talk things through. Also, the clip of the tea bag will be placed on my file in order for you to see, I will have it clipped so that you see that the kid in blue did tea bag, and did quit the game because of frustration.

Thank you,
GuzzieStyle

EDIT: one more thing that i find a bit weird, when people start to argue on the forums, or talk trash to each other on the forums, they are told by forerunners or fieldmarshalls to take it to PMs or messages, if that is the case, then shouldn't a personal message conversation not matter?

1. When no one reports a teabag whatsoever, how are we supposed to ask for a clip to begin with? Until you report it, we don't know anything happened and will assume that nothing happened. You want us to magically know that something went on that provoked the other side to do this. We can't until you report it! This is why we say in the Accords in terms of Battle Night conduct violations to "contact your Field Marshal or representative immediately if anything of the sort occurs."

2. When we are provided both visual and testimonial evidence of one person disrespecting others, there is no reason to approach the other side. There is no justification for disrespect. Whether you were disrespected first or not does not give you free reign to disrespect them back. Be the bigger man and laugh it off, and then report him after the game.

3. The accusation on Hectic was valid. Irrespective of what the cause behind his actions were, if Whoosh wasn't even in the game afterward and he is still calling the other team "sad" then it is still a disrespectful comment.

4. On PMs: We regulate them to the degree of serious breaches of conduct, primarily outlined in VI:3.1 of the Accords. However, if it is a minor situation like an argument that both sides are involved in, then we give some leeway. However, whether it is via PMs, XBL, or the forums, blatant or unwarranted disrespect is not allowed and there will be repercussions.

[Hectic Tac Toe]

Me saying Sad in the post game lobby without directing it towards anyone on BLUE that was still in the lobby should, in no way, ever be taken in the worst way. Me complaining on the forums is COMPLETELY reasonable seeing as how this is a community issue and should be treated as such. The T-bag is part of the story but it is a different and less serious issue than the one that I am mainly concerned about (people lying to have me suspended). Being reasonable ANYONE can conclude that the BLUE's that took me saying Sad in the post-game lobby as me talking trash to them after a very close game must have been looking for trouble. Had they even casually asked "what's sad?" or had Da Whoosh asked me to elaborate my one word XbL messages all of this was avoided. This brings up yet another shortcoming of everyone that took offense to anything I said. NO ONE should be looking for trouble. That's just a given. It's ridiculous and it should not even be a topic that needs to be discussed. One of the recruiting rules is that you are only supposed to recruit mature people. It isn't mature to look for trouble, it's idiotic and childish. Please don't respond with "take it to PMs" or "discuss it with a FM". I will discuss it with a FM when I get the chance to do so but this is a topic that needs to be seen and must be public so that it doesn't happen again. I didn't even mean the messages I sent to Da Whoosh over XbL in a disrespectful way. I meant them in the sense that it was Sad that HE was being disrespectful and breaking rules. I didn't report the T-bag because I understood that he was frustrated and didn't want to look for trouble.

[Blackhawk570]

After saying "sad" in a post game lobby after WINNING I take it as, "Pathetic you guys weren't even worth our time."

[Hectic Tac Toe]

After saying "sad" in a post game lobby after WINNING I take it as, "Pathetic you guys weren't even worth our time."
Then you should probably stop being so sensitive. What you're essentially trying to do right now is put meaning that I wish not to be connected with behind my words. Please don't tell me what I meant or what I said; it isn't any better than lying. Also, it's basically admitting that you have no argument aside from what isn't actually there (you have no argument).

[VerbotenDonkey]

Hectic, it was concluded that it was the messages you directly sent Whooosh that affected your suspension, not the afterparty comments.

[Blackhawk570]

Then you should probably stop being so sensitive. What you're essentially trying to do right now is put meaning that I wish not to be connected with behind my words. Please don't tell me what I meant or what I said; it isn't any better than lying. Also, it's basically admitting that you have no argument aside from what isn't actually there (you have no argument).

Honestly Hetic I don't care about trash talk personally, but what did you intend to do by saying "sad" after a match? It is not like saying corndog after a match which has no meaning.

[Hectic Tac Toe]

Donkey, number 3 of Mythonians last post. I don't know how to quote very well :)
You saying that the messages are the only reason is the first I've heard of, well, the messages being the only reason for my suspension. And I explained in my original post what I meant by the messages and that they were, obviously, taken the wrong way and made into something that they weren't.
Blackhawk, I unmuted all of blue once we were in the lobby (I had them muted during the game). They must have only heard me saying Sad, but before that I was commenting on Da Whoosh's disrespectful behavior during the game while talking to my team.

I didn't have Corrosion muted during the game (I was messing around a bit and yelling "STEVEN" when I came near him in game)...want to ban me for a month for that, anyone?

[Carpe Vexillum]

Saying "sad" has no positive connotations in that moment. There is nothing you can apply the word "sad" to that will make it okay in that situation.

Sometimes words can mean so many different things depending on the mind that reads/listen to them and on how the same mind reads (i.e. interprets) them at different times. One word can speak millions, and you know there is more behind it then just "sad".

[Mythonian]

Then you should probably stop being so sensitive. What you're essentially trying to do right now is put meaning that I wish not to be connected with behind my words. Please don't tell me what I meant or what I said; it isn't any better than lying. Also, it's basically admitting that you have no argument aside from what isn't actually there (you have no argument).

Ad hominem isn't a valid argumentative method either, by the way. xD (Yes, I know that saying that makes me a hypocrite)

What the intentions behind your words was doesn't correlate to the impact of what you said. If Whoosh wasn't in the party and the other team hears you saying "sad" to them, then it is entirely reasonable and logical for them to assume that you are disrespecting them.

EDIT: This was typed before I read Hectic's post that is right above this, so this isn't precise anymore.


Hectic, it was concluded that it was the messages you directly sent Whooosh that affected your suspension, not the afterparty comments.

Testimonial evidence is valid and was considered as well.

[VerbotenDonkey]

It was ruled by Kuhblam. If the person finds the words disrespectful, and if the words appear to hold disrespectful meaning, then they can report it. In this case, it was ruled as disrespect and a low-term harassment. Regardless of intention, it was sent and its about how the receiver interprets it.

EDIT Argh Myth posts faster and more in detail than i am on my smartphone. I didnt know you collected the testimonial evidence too, Blam made it seem differently.

[Hectic Tac Toe]

Saying "sad" has no positive connotations in that moment. There is nothing you can apply the word "sad" to that will make it okay in that situation.

Sometimes words can mean so many different things depending on the mind that reads/listen to them and on how the same mind reads (i.e. interprets) them at different times. One word can speak millions, and you know there is more behind it then just "sad".
I didn't say Sad in a positive way and I haven't, in any way, tried to make it seem like I did. Exactly what you just said though! Words can mean MANY different things. There WAS more behind it than just "sad". Behind sad was "It's sad, Da Whoosh, that you break rules and blatantly disrespect me by dry-humping my virtual body after killing it. Thank you for explaining exactly what I've been saying Carpe, maybe now that you've said it anyone that is being hard-headed about this simply because I'm on the team will understand things for clearly.
Again, Thank You Carpe Vexillum.

[Carpe Vexillum]

I didn't say Sad in a positive way and I haven't, in any way, tried to make it seem like I did. Exactly what you just said though! Words can mean MANY different things. There WAS more behind it than just "sad". Behind sad was "It's sad, Da Whoosh, that you break rules and blatantly disrespect me by dry-humping my virtual body after killing it. Thank you for explaining exactly what I've been saying Carpe, maybe now that you've said it anyone that is being hard-headed about this simply because I'm on the team will understand things for clearly.
Again, Thank You Carpe Vexillum.

We are not saying you are wrong, we are just saying that it was disrespectful. And if there was cause for it, the cause will be dealt with as well. I had the very same thing happen with me recently, its just how the system works. Take it gracefully, you wont even be here.

[Andimion]

I love Hectic. You are a smart individual. I wanted to say tht. You beat me to it. XD

[Hectic Tac Toe]

The bottom line is that words can twisted. It shouldn't be how the receiver interprets it, it should be how to sender means it. That's simple logic. Corrosion got a fairly nasty snipe on Guzzie during one of our games and afterwards said something along the lines of "I raped you with the snipe Guzzie". Also, after his positive 19 game against us he told us that he was ripping our faces off. If I was looking for trouble could I report that he was talking trash? Could him playfully saying "I raped you with the snipe Guzzie" be taken as trash talk? I think so.

[MedeDust]

You guys never fail to amuse me. Arguing over something that has alternative any more is pointless. I had no part in the decision of the suspension which means I have no part in the chatter, but when you spam my forums with pointless bickering I step in. This is closed. The subject is no longer up for discussion. If you still wish to provide the liable evidence of the t-bag pm it to a forerunner. Thank you.

[Mythonian]

The bottom line is that words can twisted. It shouldn't be how the receiver interprets it, it should be how to sender means it. That's simple logic. Corrosion got a fairly nasty snipe on Guzzie during one of our games and afterwards said something along the lines of "I raped you with the snipe Guzzie". Also, after his positive 19 game against us he told us that he was ripping our faces off. If I was looking for trouble could I report that he was talking trash? Could him playfully saying "I raped you with the snipe Guzzie" be taken as trash talk? I think so.

Yes, those could be taken as trash talking. And you could report it, and we would review it.

When it comes to punishment, though, it isn't what the receive interprets it as that matters, it is how we interpret it. After reviewing it, we decide if it had connotational malice or not and make judgements on the severity of the context and the perspectives of the involved parties.

Your intentions when you sent it are not conveyed by the words themselves. This is one reason why it can be easy to flame people via text communications, because the emotion or intonation of the words are not able to be understood by the recipient. Therefore, the only logical thing to do it objectively judge the connotation of the words, which is what we do.

It doesn't matter why you said it. The only thing that matters is what you said.

EDIT: Oops. Was posted before I knew that is was closed. Sorry about that...

[Kuhblam]

Alright, here's how it's going to work.

Hectic, we're lifting your battle suspension. I'm not doing it based on your testimony, I'm doing it because we have inconsistencies and I can't justify the suspension anymore because of what you've brought forward. This is all new information to me with the tea-bag, etc.

Expect a small update on topics in Open Convo in the future, everyone.

~Kuhblam