Debate #2 (Religion/God) [Archive] - Forerunner Conflict: Resurgence

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Nocte

10-16-2011, 03:57 PM

Alright so this debate will be over the idea of God existing and about religion.

I'm going to be very open on this debate as I expect this topic to be very long and very interesting.

Rules and Regs:

No swearing unless it's to stress your views. I don't want an F-Bomb dropped every other sentence just because.
No flaming. (Trust me we can tell.)
**Remember I am watching, Ghost is watching, and now we have 3 Assassins looming in the dark.**

I'm just gonna say it now, that if you are going to get upset due to someone attacking your views do not post. Now in the same light, if you feel like attacking ones views, remember to respect their opinion. These debates are for pure fun.

Scarekro

10-16-2011, 04:00 PM

God doesn't exist.

But if he did..... Dinkelberg....

RENGADE 0F FUNK

10-16-2011, 04:02 PM

God existed up until we discovered dinosaurs.

But i do believe in an afterlife of some sort.

Nocte

10-16-2011, 04:19 PM

I have to say I believe in some spirtual something because my mom went to a psychic years ago and the psychic told her my grandpa would die of something with his lungs. He never smoked but died of lung cancer.... She also told my mom she wouldn't become a nurse because of medicine. My mom my failed the final test in nursing school. Because she did terrible on the medicine section of the test. Now do I believe n God? No, do believe their is an afterlife or a spirit world? Yes I do.

Acid

10-16-2011, 04:21 PM

Thank you! Okay. Well the first thing, since the burden of proof is on those that make the claim, those who believe in a god/gods must prove that there god/gods exist. From what I've seen, that has yet to happen.

And since Christianity is, I'm going to assume, the most prominent religious view of the people of this community, I will "attack", base my arguments against Christianity, there religion.

Before I go any further, I have a question I want a Christian to answer, how is it that Noah was able to fit 2 of every animal onto the Ark, because during that time period there were a hell of a lot more species than there are now?

Also IF the "great flood" did happen, it would of killed of a lot of fish. Why? Well if the flood did happen, then the freshwater and saltwater would obviously mix. And if you take a saltwater fish and put it in a mixture of saltwater and freshwater, it will die, and vice-versa with a freshwater fish. If you have a counter-argument against this, I would love to hear it.

I also have an Ace up my sleeve, it pretty much explains that Christianity and other religions are based off of early astrology.

Also,
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/000/206/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster. jpg?1241373617

UNLUCKY NUM13ER

10-16-2011, 04:21 PM

Acid

10-16-2011, 04:28 PM

Nocte

10-16-2011, 04:33 PM

My belief is a little hard to explain. I am christian but I don't deny proven science. I believe that there is a God. It is a fact that we are in the 3rd dimension. Each dimension can only see the other dimensions under it & none above. It is my belief that God is in the 10th & final dimension. If anyone would like to do further research to understand what I am talking about look up "String Theory".

Ahh good ole "string theory". So that my friend I have to say I agree, that "heaven" isn't a place of spirits rather just the 4th dimension. Look at Dark Energy it is the thing that holds the universe together. Not gravity, compared to Dark Energy gravity is one of the weakest forces in the universe. Then you have Dark Matter, which could be the 4th dimension that we can see, but we really don't know exactly what the hell it is.

silversleek

10-16-2011, 04:38 PM

i... well... i... don't feel safe elaborating on my beliefs.

Spartanbh

10-16-2011, 04:58 PM

Religion is one of the biggest causes of all wars and major genocides/tragedies that have befallen our earth...I.E. Holocaust, Crusades, Middle East and Israel, Trail of Tears, Joan of Arc, and countless other events in history. There is no arguing that...At the same time though, religion has brought forth a lot of good and sanctuary to the world, with Charities and Missionaries and all that jazz. Religion, whether you believe in one or not, definitely gives faith and hope (though it may be false hope) to people in need of it, and thats never a terrible thing...people need something to look up to when all else is wrong.

The Old and New Testaments are "based on true stories", but they most certainly did not happen exactly how the Bible says they did. There is scientific proof that Jesus Christ existed, that Noah's Ark existed, and there is some proof that Moses existed. To say all the events happened would be ignorant, and to say none of them happened would ignorant as well.

The problem with Religion is when people try to force it onto other people. That is the most obnoxious and most aggravating thing I've ever seen. I don't want a Catholic telling me that since I'm Jewish, I'm going to hell for not following Catholic Canon. I'm not gonna go to a Muslim and tell them that since they aren't Jewish, they aren't the Chosen People and don't get into the VIP section of Heaven (cause all the Jews do...just sayin). I don't believe in Judaism either on that note, though I do promote the stereotypes for my own amusement. Wars are started because people force religion onto others. Who's to say that your God is better than my God? Or that your God is better than all of the Hindu's Gods? If people stopped trying to think that their God is better and just accept other people's Gods and not fret because they don't want yours, then the world would be a better place.

Atheists have the right to not believe in God. But what is more annoying than someone trying to tell you to follow their God is when Atheists try and denounce all Religion together because they feel like being Hipsters. Let people believe what they want.

But in the end, no matter what Religion we follow...we're all FUCKED anyway =)

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 05:06 PM

I have a religion not based on faith. I have no faith, I just figure that if there is a God out there, I might as well be friends with him. It's worked pretty nice so far.

MedeDust

10-16-2011, 05:07 PM

I'm a Christian. Not religious. Not a psycho. Not an extremist. I live by faith. I do not care if I can not see God with my own eyes. I can feel his peace and I can see his work in my life. I see signs and visual physical miracles all for the glory of my God. Yes I've even experienced my aunt being healed by cancer. I do not care about the problems I face and the attacks and tribulations because I have seen how all works for the best when you put your faith in God. So people say God is evil and this and that because he permits or somehow orders evil things to happen. It really is us that bring it all on ourselfs. He offers so many great opportunities but naturally we believe we know it all and we can do it all but we are weak. Nobody can provide the strength that God provides for me. I've never felt as great as I feel now that I accepted Christ. So ill have you guys know from now, I am in no place to put anybody down, judge, or attack, I am just here to say what I know is true. If I at a point stop posting or feel like stopping its because I believe it is getting immature or childish. Now the Noah Question, If you read over the story you will be informed exactly how big the ark was and that it is in fact possible to fit 2 of each. Intact it was proven on the history channel. Now about the fish, duh of coarse they died, that was the plan, to wipe out all the impurities and have a fresh start. All though man was quite stupid and ran towards the grasp of the devil again. In the end, if you don't want to believe its fine its on you. God won't force you and I won't, and if anybody does try then they are not true followers of Christ. Just know that you were spoken to about God and you were warned about hell, so when you stand before his presence that soon to come day you have no excuse :)

Nocte

10-16-2011, 05:44 PM

Not to much debating haha, more of telling one another our views.

So Mede I have to ask, what drew you to excepting Jesus and having your opinion in God be so strong? For me I fell out of believing in God, when I was in 7th grade when I was learning about the Medieval era of Europe and priests would tell people if you paid money to the church your loved one even in hell would go to heaven. That just shows me that religion was nothing more then a hoax to control people. (During that time) I do believe that when Jesus created Christianity his intentions were to bring people together in a peaceful and loving manner. However you allow people to take the reigns and things become corrupt.

Acid

10-16-2011, 05:58 PM

Mythonian

10-16-2011, 06:17 PM

Why are you guys talking about the fourth dimension and saying that we are in the third dimension? We exist in the fourth dimension (which is where space, the first 3 dimensions, combines with time to form spacetime). If you guys are talking about Euclidean space, then this is even more out of context... lol

Building off of what Mededust said, religion wasn't the cause of any conflicts or wars. People are.

Bad people will use anything to control others, from money, land, threats, etc. and religion is no different.

If someone is bribed, do you blame the money? No, you blame the person who bribed him.

If someone is abusing the faith of others, the faith is not the cause, it is the people abusing their power.

People forcing their religion on people is indeed something that isn't very good. However, is it the religion's fault? Once again, no: it is the person's fault. As Mededust said, a true follower of Christ doesn't force their religion on others, so those who do are false examples and therefore invalid evidence.

The corruption of political leaders has nothing to do with the religion itself. That is, again, a people problem, not a religious one.

Let the debate begin...

Now, I'd like to take a different approach. Why is it always a debate on religion or the existence of God? Why don't we flip the issue and analyze one of the alternatives?

I won't get into the pseudo-science of evolutionary theory or even anthropology. I'll stay away from the semantical aspects and focus on some solid, physics-related issues... Heck, I'll even steer clear of the hole-ridden topic of radiometric dating...

The Big Bang... (recently adjusted with slightly improved models and given a new name, but I'm still calling it this.)

In Physics, there are certain laws. These laws allow us to understand reality as much as we do, and let us extrapolate a lot of what we don't understand.

The Big Bang, summarized and paraphrased, is basically that initially, there was no matter, energy, or forces that existed in the universe. Then, one day, "it" exploded. This "it" is unknown and has no logical explanation. However, this "it" exploded and the matter and energy it contained created the initial forces.

Now, beside the utterly incomprehensibly foolish notion that nothingness can randomly explode without any reasonable cause, all of this matter and energy starts expanding due to the explosion.

Now, the only possible way for it to escape it's own gravity is to travel with an initial velocity that is greater than the speed of light (much, much greater). I could show you an example of the actual math involved (complete with acceleration vectors and gravitation laws) to prove that it needs to go faster then light.

Now, this already breaks one commonly held law in physics, that nothing can go faster than the speed of light. This was one of the major issues with the Big Bang, and so scientists, using String Theory, came up with this: "well, since it doesn't make sense, we'll say that when all the forces are combined in the Big Bang, suddenly the laws of physics don't apply."

Now, why can they do that? Why does everything that explains the existence of the universe suddenly not mean anything at all? Well, they never came up with a good explanation, and there still isn't a valid explanation (there are like 2 half-way decent ones, but the scientific community is split like 60-40 on it).

Well, let's just let them have their way and pretend that it makes sense...

Now, as the energy and matter somehow defy physics and go faster then the speed of light, they continue to expand. Now, somehow, they begin to slow down.

Why?

Well, they suddenly decided that increased distance allows gravity the start to slow the energy/mass conglomeration... Math: Gravity is an inverse square law! This means that the greater distance means that gravity gets weaker and weaker.

Well, if gravity is getting weaker, why does that means that it suddenly skips from a power of zero to one of huge magnitude? Well, this isn't very well explained either, and the scientific community doesn't agree on why this suddenly happens.

One major theory is that such high energy/mass concentration (super-high density) causes gravitation to disappear. Well, this doesn't make sense because blackholes themselves disprove it. Blackholes are the densest objects we can imagine, and they still continue to prove the inverse square law of gravity. (Also, they add validation to the fact that nothing goes faster than light as well).

Well, ignoring the issue of random gravitation, as the matter and energy continue to expand, all of the others forces take shape and form. The "universe" slows down to under the speed of light, and suddenly (randomly) every law of physics starts working.

Except, of course, what we use to explain what happened next...

According to theory, it continues slowing (due to gravity, until it finally gets to our current speed, approximately), and then we have the current universe. Simple, right?

No. There is another issue that comes up.

Explosions cause something known as "chaos," which is where the collective motion of particles is unpredictable. Basically, an example of this is a double pendulum. The chaotic motion if completely unpredictable, and no physical models can accurately describe it.

But how does this apply here? Well, when reality exploded and created the universe, it created it chaotically. This is observationally proven by the fact that galaxies are not evenly distributed.

So what? Well, if it was chaotic, it would stay chaotic. There is another commonly held law of physics that goes simply, "you cannot create order from chaos." Well, currently, we have the universe split into innumerable galaxies which have more-or-less distributed the galactic matter and energy which supposedly originated from the big bang.

The facts that, (1) the matter and energy coalesced into galactic discs, (2) they remained stable, (3) carried collective motion and momentum, (4) coalesced into solar systems, (5) coalesced into planets and stars, (6) formed a galactic core with a blackhole, and others, prove that order was created.

The very fact that order was created from chaos after the time when all laws of physics were supposed to already be taking affect and be maintaining the fabric of reality makes no sense.

Except, there is one possibility. There is a way that chaos can create order.

An outside force.

For now, I've got to start setting up the battles.

When I have time, I can expand this into the present-day situations regarding dark matter/energy, antimatter, blackholes, redshift, galactic motion and expansion, relativity, and the concept of time. See you guys then! :)

Ex Zen Mute

10-16-2011, 06:19 PM

Roman Catholic. Re-finding what I know and why I believe. Might post later. Or answer a question if someone wish to pose one at me.

I believe God exists, still questioning why there are odd fanatics in religion though.

MedeDust

10-16-2011, 06:27 PM

Eagle: I grew up in a Christian home and learned so much about the bible, I was attacked by demons as a kid and I had psychologists try to diagnose me as insane and I would cry blood because of it. Eventually I decided to hate God like so many people because I blamed him for causing me all this pain and bringing me to this world so I started working with dark majic and all that stuff and became extremely wealthy for an ordinary teen. Too bad I smoked it all away and did some pretty stupid stuff. Problem was though that I ignored the fact that I was gaining so much because of the devil, so when I denied the devil I started plowing everything and became a nobody. I lost all of my so called respect and wealth. I turned to God to talk to him and I knew how to communicate with him, I knew how to pray and what he could do. I never denied he was all powerful I always feared him but it was the fact that after I became his enemy and hell's best friend he still accepted me with open arms that touched me deeply. I took him in and even though I still struggle to live up to this new life I do it all in appreciation. I have a great education ahead of me. I have an awesome family who now respects me. I have the sufficient nescesities to live a comfortable life. And even if I were to one day end up under a bridge half way dead, I will praise him because I at least have a guaranteed eternal life in heaven and I know that some way some how I furthered his plan. Acid: You're asking some very poorly thought-out typical questions. I know my God is real because the experience is real. It has been real, it is real, and it will forever be real. You can say that so many other things could have been the cause of signs and miracles but that's when faith draws in. My God does things, he actually does things. Where are the Greeks and Egyptian Gods now? The Muslim God is the same God even if some may say otherwise. The problem is the way that religion twistes the word of God. All religious branch out from one belief and becomes disrupted along the way as it is interpreted or used for personal gain. As for the universe question, interesting isn't it. Truly breathe taking to wonder about such an amazing great expansion. Who knows really what God has plan but himself. There's certain things that right now he does not tell us for our own good or because there are things we just can not comprehend. He does promise however to one day reveal to us his mysteries and plans ;) Why does he care for us? He loves us he created us at his image. You truly will not understand God's love untill you truly try it first hand.

Twitch

10-16-2011, 06:47 PM

umm...Atheist FTW!

Puba

10-16-2011, 06:51 PM

i belive that there is a afterlife and i belive in a deity

Acid

10-16-2011, 07:02 PM

@Mythonian, I'm glad you just didn't say "I believe this because a book says so." Thanks for putting thought into it.

@MedeDust, there have been stories like that for plenty of other religions. What makes there wrong and yours right? Please answer this.

MedeDust

10-16-2011, 07:15 PM

Because, Acid, it may not be able to be proven to you by fact in your eyes that my beliefs make more sense, but it is the result of my walk by my faith, and those like me, that you can examine to be certain that there is something truly effective behind it. I will not get to into it because this is where the never ending cycle of why is my religion wrong? Starts.

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 07:21 PM

Hey, I just want to say: it's the same God. That's what Jesus said, that's what Muhammed said, that's probably something Abraham said at some point. If you are a monotheist, you believe in the same God as everyone else. The only difference between you and the other guys is that you have one way to view/worship God, and they have another.
Therefore, anyone who tries to tell you to fight other people's gods is basically blaspheming. Also, anyone who asks you why you think any other god isn't real but yours is, just tell them that it's the same god. That way, we won't have to argue as much. Or be wrong.

LocoCrazy

10-16-2011, 07:39 PM

Religion started pointless wars and diseases.

Religion is bullshit.

Kuhblam

10-16-2011, 07:58 PM

Here's my two cents:

I'm Roman Catholic, but I don't really believe.

That being said, I'm taking an Apologetics class (part of my HS curriculum). Now, one might say this class is bias, but we haven't even touched up on the subject of a Christian God yet and pretty much into logic at the moment. The more and more I delve into logic, reason, etc. and opposing viewpoints against monotheism and the like, I'm almost positive that although we cannot prove there is indeed a God, we cannot prove there isn't one as well.

I think a lot of people use Religious Subjectivism today; religion is "true for you but not for me." If you guys want to argue about God, just make sure your arguments are actually sound before you blow up on anybody.

~Kuhblam

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 08:07 PM

Religion started pointless wars and diseases.

Religion is bullshit.

One person started the Holocaust.

People are bullshit?

ShenmueZero v2

10-16-2011, 08:12 PM

All i will say is that the reference to god needs to be taken out of the pledge.

LocoCrazy

10-16-2011, 08:15 PM

One person started the Holocaust.

People are bullshit?

Umm. yea? Look at politicians.

Tard.

HeavyArms

10-16-2011, 08:18 PM

I am god. Your all gonna die. Except Loco, cause hes the Anti-Christ, combinded with Eri.

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 09:38 PM

Umm. yea? Look at politicians.

Tard.

You're calling me a tard, and yet you're agreeing with me. I'll chalk that up as a point in my favor.

ThatRussianBear

10-16-2011, 09:39 PM

Mythonian

10-16-2011, 09:51 PM

All people that truly belive in god and say that unlikely events are to be percived as miracles from god are ignorant, stubborn, idiots. Religion was always a scapegoat before modern science and has no purpose now.

Someone didn't read the thread...

xD

I believe in God, are you calling me ignorant?

ThatRussianBear

10-16-2011, 10:00 PM

Yes

MedeDust

10-16-2011, 10:03 PM

Way to present your case and completely insult the rest of us. If you want any part of this discussion, at least learn what a debate is. If not, I'd very well appreciate it if you'd keep your personal attacks on religion to yourself. In any case, you, sir, contradicted yourself greatly when you called us ignorant.

ThatRussianBear

10-16-2011, 10:11 PM

Lol u mad?

MedeDust

10-16-2011, 10:13 PM

Mad? No. Surprised that there is at least one person that is going to ruin this for everybody? Also a no.

ThatRussianBear

10-16-2011, 10:18 PM

Its not possible to disrupt a debate with an opinion, an as stated.in op's post: do not reply to a comment if you are butthurt about it.

MedeDust

10-16-2011, 10:22 PM

Lol I'm not butt hurt, Russian, I am doing my job, and so far Ive let you off easily. This is you warning :) Read these:

3.1 Excessive or inappropriate insults, disrespect, personal attacks, racial slurs, discrimination, harassment, or inflammatory posts are not allowed.
3.2 Meaningless threads, off-topic posts, advertisements, trolling, or any sort of spam are not allowed, whether they be via general forum posting, through the private messaging or visitor messaging systems, via blogs, or any other external communication method.
3.3 The Moderation Team has full discretion over which posts violate these rules.
3.4 Signs of blatant disrespect or of disregard to these Accords may be met with an immediate 48-hour ban. The Moderation team will then discuss the details for a final decision if necessary.

ThatRussianBear

10-16-2011, 10:32 PM

Mods are clearly butt hurt and power hungry, Im outta here, would post picture but im on shit phone, sorry for speaking my mind and opinion.

LocoCrazy

10-16-2011, 10:39 PM

You're calling me a tard, and yet you're agreeing with me. I'll chalk that up as a point in my favor.

You, being new, clearly have no idea who I am. If you did, you would understand.

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 10:43 PM

All people that truly belive in god and say that unlikely events are to be percived as miracles from god are ignorant, stubborn, idiots. Religion was always a scapegoat before modern science and has no purpose now.

Modern science is just a scapegoat before future science. Just look how we can make stuff go faster than the speed of light now. That's not supposed to be possible.

ThatRussianBear

10-16-2011, 10:48 PM

Not sure if troll or just joking

Mythonian

10-16-2011, 11:03 PM

Its not possible to disrupt a debate with an opinion, an as stated.in op's post: do not reply to a comment if you are butthurt about it.

Debates are not about opinions, there are about rebuttals, which are like this:

Person A: This is my view, and I use this evidence to support it.
Person B: I disagree with your view, and I use this evidence to contradict you.

And it repeats.

Someone that simply says "You're wrong!" or "You're stupid!" are people who ruin debates.

Modern science is just a scapegoat before future science. Just look how we can make stuff go faster than the speed of light now. That's not supposed to be possible.

We haven't made anything go faster than the speed of light that I've heard of. What are you referring to?

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 11:11 PM

Mythonian, I'm afraid that you know what I'm talking about, which would somehow make me wrong, but I think it was neutrinos at CERN. It was a big thing, people wrote articles on it.

Nocte

10-16-2011, 11:15 PM

Russian as OP. Knock it the hell off. Everything Mede said about the way you acted is completely true, as is what Myth said about debates.

As to Myth your first post sums up everything I've tried to learn about the universe by sitting and reading for hours and watching hours of documentaries... and I hate you for being able to remember it all haha

Now back on topic.

Mede I have to ask what do you mean by you were attacked by demons? Cause I am going to tell you right now, their are plenty of things that can be psychological that you think are demons but your mind is only making them up. Because the Sumerians believed that demons were just simply just spirits, not ones with evil intentions just spirits.

Spartanbh

10-16-2011, 11:21 PM

Mythonian, I'm afraid that you know what I'm talking about, which would somehow make me wrong, but I think it was neutrinos at CERN. It was a big thing, people wrote articles on it.

I believe the book and movie Angels and Demons (which was one of my favorite books of all time) by Dan Brown (the guy who wrote The Da Vinci Code) was about that event that involved trying to create Anti-matter to establish a link between Science and God. CERN has done some stuff that can definitely explain some relations...but I haven't really done enough research to fully understand it.

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 11:25 PM

Angels and Demons was just about antimatter, Spartan, and how it would help understand the universe. It din't have anything to do with stuff moving faster than light, but it would be a great example for this discussion. If it weren't for the fact that the primary argument in favor of religion in that book would be torn to shreds here.

Acid

10-16-2011, 11:43 PM

Angels and Demons was a over-exaggeration of Anti-Matter. It would take a long time to make as much as they portrayed in the novel/movie.

But, if I remember correctly, Intelligent Design has been but to the "scientific test", meaning they used the scientific method to try and prove it, and they failed.
_________

@Mede. I was a Christian at one point and time too. The only reason was because of indoctrination and dogma. If we have disproven the Bible, that which we have, then why believe in a god that so heavily relies on the bible to be true for his existence.

Plus now that I've seen it from a different point of view, it just seems strange that god would create humans, get made at something he created, wipe the majority of them out, then impregnate a virgin (which was physically impossible in that day and age), to give birth to himself, to kill himself, to satisfy himself, for something that he pretty much started. That and he demands your praise all the damn time. Pretty egotistical of him, isn't it?

_________

@Kuhblam

...before you blow up on anybody...

At first I read this as "...before you blow up anybody..."

Daaaah Whoosh

10-16-2011, 11:55 PM

Acid, you're going to have to elaborate on that whole scientific method thing, but I'm just going to assume I can refute that point.

But anyway, you're forgetting that we really don't know all that much about God. The Bible is nice for people who can't think for themselves, but it's way more opinion than fact sometimes, I will give you that much. The way I see it, God is like a guy who's suddenly been given more power than he's used to: he does some crazy stuff with it, just because he can. If things don't work out, then he starts over. It makes sense to me, because I could see myself doing the same thing in His position. Not sure if that helps out anyone else, because no one else is as crazy as I am.

Mythonian

10-17-2011, 12:34 AM

Mythonian, I'm afraid that you know what I'm talking about, which would somehow make me wrong, but I think it was neutrinos at CERN. It was a big thing, people wrote articles on it.

I just did a bit of research and know what you're talking about now. The neutrinos passed a point 60 nanoseconds (0.00000006 seconds) earlier than they should have.

Here is my thoughts:

Due to the exotic and uncertain nature of neutrinos (we understand rather little about them), and also the fact that we cannot measure things perfectly, it is easily within the margin of error.

Also, how do they know when the particles finished? The only way to observe their position is with a laser which would be interrupted when they pass.

However, the laser would impart kinetic energy onto the particles, changing their acceleration and therefore pushing them off center. (extrapolation of Pauli Uncertainty Principle)

Also, the fact that the supercollider is a giant circle causes centrifugal forces to act on the particles. This would skew results.

So, therefore the time difference is within the margin of error and is certainly a mechanical issue.

As to Myth your first post sums up everything I've tried to learn about the universe by sitting and reading for hours and watching hours of documentaries... and I hate you for being able to remember it all haha

Now back on topic.

Mede I have to ask what do you mean by you were attacked by demons? Cause I am going to tell you right now, their are plenty of things that can be psychological that you think are demons but your mind is only making them up. Because the Sumerians believed that demons were just simply just spirits, not ones with evil intentions just spirits.

I've read hundreds of books and watched dozens of documentaries on this topic, as well as being involved in multiple debates. :)

I am not a devout Christian. Mede is 100x the Christian I am.

I believe in God because I decided that atheism is full of so many holes and issues that I cannot stand to agree with it whatsoever. I'll get into it more tomorrow... :smart:

But, if I remember correctly, Intelligent Design has been but to the "scientific test", meaning they used the scientific method to try and prove it, and they failed.
_________

@Mede. I was a Christian at one point and time too. The only reason was because of indoctrination and dogma. If we have disproven the Bible, that which we have, then why believe in a god that so heavily relies on the bible to be true for his existence.

Plus now that I've seen it from a different point of view, it just seems strange that god would create humans, get made at something he created, wipe the majority of them out, then impregnate a virgin (which was physically impossible in that day and age), to give birth to himself, to kill himself, to satisfy himself, for something that he pretty much started. That and he demands your praise all the damn time. Pretty egotistical of him, isn't it?

Here are some other things that fail the scientific method test: evolution, the big bang, radiometric dating, galactic formation, order-from-chaos.

Here is why: to pass the scientific method, you must (1) test it, and (2) observe the results.

Evolution:

To test it, you can try to get a creature to mutate into something that can be considered another species in which either the complexity has increased or it has better adapted to an environment. We have introduced many artificial mutations and seen the results, and have observed thousands throughout nature. However, NONE of those have been positive changes (unless you consider artificially changing the DNA in a way which is utterly impossible without God existing).
To observe it, watch a creature change into another species. This has never been observed. We have onl seen what has already been around for thousands of years, and nothing new has ever evolved which we have observed.

Big Bang

How the hell would you test it? CERN tried to do something, but got insanely self-contradicting results...
What would you observe? So far, we have always observed the opposite happening: that nothingness does not explode.

etc., etc.

Wait, how was the Bible disproven? If the fact that it fails the scientific method prove the Bible false, haven't I just disproven almost every science textbook? lol

I agree, it is indeed strange that God would do such a thing. But, it is also strange for you to think about how it is strange. The very fact that we think at all is so incomprehensibly unknown that there aren't really any other options than saying we are the work of God.

Biologically, it makes no sense for us to think. Chemically, it makes no sense for us to think. Physically, it makes no sense for us to think. The electric impulses in our brain do not understandably translate into thinking.

Our "closest ancestors" as Evolution describes the apes, are comparatively stupid. They do not think, at all. They have a memory, can relate objects or feelings, but that is all. The very concept of abstract thought is something that only humans can do. The difference between actual thought and memory is much more than it seems, and evolution (i.e., the changing of DNA) cannot explain it.

I'm majoring as a Chemical Engineer. Believe me when I say it that the chemistry between our brains and apes are, for all intents and purposes, effectively identical. The electric impulses are identical. Therefore, there is no reason for us to have thought if apes don't.

So why do we? Well, because we were made in God's image.

MedeDust

10-17-2011, 12:53 AM

Mede I have to ask what do you mean by you were attacked by demons? Cause I am going to tell you right now, their are plenty of things that can be psychological that you think are demons but your mind is only making them up. Because the Sumerians believed that demons were just simply just spirits, not ones with evil intentions just spirits.

I wasn't psycho at all in fact I had a great child hood. I was one of the best students at my school put through alternative advanced programs which I rejected later on.

What I meant by it is visual beings, and spiritual beings, as you mentioned. Yes this does mean I believe in what people call "ghosts".

There really isn't much I can tell you because its the same story all the time. Somebody sees something supernatural, they can hardly prove it, so hardly anybody believes them.

@Mede. I was a Christian at one point and time too. The only reason was because of indoctrination and dogma. If we have disproven the Bible, that which we have, then why believe in a god that so heavily relies on the bible to be true for his existence.

Plus now that I've seen it from a different point of view, it just seems strange that god would create humans, get made at something he created, wipe the majority of them out, then impregnate a virgin (which was physically impossible in that day and age), to give birth to himself, to kill himself, to satisfy himself, for something that he pretty much started. That and he demands your praise all the damn time. Pretty egotistical of him, isn't it?

What do you mean by "we" have disproven? It has not been disproven. The Bible isn't what God relies on. The Bible is His plan, promises, and word.

You know what happen? God wanted to do something to show off his power and creativity. Why? Because he is a show off no doubt about it, but not in that bad way. Its more like what Whoosh said.

These "why" questions are very sensitive because nobody truly knows the true thoughts and plans of God and we are in no place to ask why because he gives us so much whether you notice it or not. Here I go though, I am human I am not perfect and I am not always on the dot, here it goes.

God created man at his image, how he wanted. He gave them beautiful land to rule over and live from. And he was satisfied. Kind of how in forge you try to build something perfect and fun for people to enjoy and you get the credit for it. <<<aha:) Anyways, God placed a tree of knowledge of good and evil that was forbidden within this place. Exactly what did he put it there for, nobody truly knows. I happen to think that he was going to use it for a greater purpose later on. If man ate from the tree God promised that he would become mortal. That is what is meant by "you will for sure die". Now why on earth would you want to leave your immortality and become mortal???? i do not know. So devil happen to come along and ruin God's master piece. Now check this out, God told the snake(Devil) That he will eat dirt for eternity. WE were made from dirt, it says so in the bible. So that means the devil feeds on us. It's his pleasure to grow the number of people that will accompany him to hell. So why doesn't God just stop it? He is. He created a plan, a hard to believe and to understand plan. Why a plan? Because He is not one to take back what he says nor what he does. So created man and the devil so he will not permanently wipe them out, he will just punish them for being ungrateful. It's pretty much like saying, "Wow, really? You don't like what I have to offer? You prefer hell? Fine be my guest, as I promised there is two choices." So God tried so hard to keep his people pure throughout time, and time and time again, man rejected them and that is what sped up their physical death. Their is just so many bumps on the road that need to be removed or fixed. So now the great controversy, Christ, Jesus.

You mentioned impregnate a virgin. See God had the best plan to counter the condemnation of man. Before Christ, if you were not a Jew, nor were you pure for God, you would not enter his kingdom. I think Spartan can back me up on that. God really is another name for the Trinity, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one that moves amongst us currently and that did so before man was created. The Son, Jesus, was the one who felt allot closer to us and wanted to do this sacrifice for us. Jehovah, or the one that we reffer to as the God, or Father, is the one who is in heaven and stays there, watches over us, plans things, and orders things. He gave us to be Jesus' Kingdom just how he has the angels as his. Now, back on topic, Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice for all man kind. Born from an untouched woman, and sinless his whole life. Man needed to somehow fall under the Grace of God, but at this point it was impossible. So Jesus made it possible. Walk amongst us like a true man. Had a regular child hood. Shared the scriptures. Was tempted like us. He even cried like us and slept like us. He made it so simple, all you have to do is believe in him to be saved. Now what is Believing really? It's the power behind the promise you make that you know he is God, Lord and Savior. You show it by following in Jesus' footsteps, trying to not sin as much as possible, and caring for others. Making our selfs minimal. He knows that we are weak and that we fail and fall but that doesn't stop His love, mercy and grace for us. He is there for you constantly even when you do not see him, nor feel him. No matter how evil you may be, in the end if you turn to him with a repented heart, his arms are open. That is a promise. I experienced the change first hand. In fact I still can't believe how much better my life got. It's very stable and I do not have to worry about getting shot the next day anymore:)

And no, he does not demand our praise. He doesn't need it He has millions of angels and heaven that do it already. The reason behind our praise is appreciation for who he is and what he does. It is also the way that he moves and conducts miracles.

But anyway, you're forgetting that we really don't know all that much about God. The Bible is nice for people who can't think for themselves, but it's way more opinion than fact sometimes, I will give you that much. The way I see it, God is like a guy who's suddenly been given more power than he's used to: he does some crazy stuff with it, just because he can. If things don't work out, then he starts over. It makes sense to me, because I could see myself doing the same thing in His position. Not sure if that helps out anyone else, because no one else is as crazy as I am.

I like your analogy all though its an unstable comparison it's mostly right. Though he does crazy things only in our minds. Just wait until he reveal the mysteries behind them to us:)

Nocte

10-17-2011, 02:09 AM

I'm just gonna put this out there, if all religious people could be like Mede I wouldn't hate religion ^.^

Now Mede I'm not calling you psycho, cause I've had some strange things happen to me that I could say ghosts did it. But they were tricks my mind played on me, I've seen shadows out of the corner of my eye. I've heard whispers saying my name in the middle of the night as I walk up and down my street or when I sit in my room writing or reading.

You see I've turned my back to god and became Atheist because of religious people and due to the fact that if God truly has a plan for everyone. Then he new I would become Atheist so he must be okay with it, and I try and be nice in my life and do good I don't act like an ass like many Atheists do. Sure I love debating the topic of God, because it is something no one can quite explain. Sure you can hold the bible in the air, but can you really explain God like you can a person you know? No you can't, it is something humans can't understand. Whether he is truly a real being or the oldest character of fiction humans have ever known.

Science can never disprove God, because Science can never disprove faith.

MedeDust

10-17-2011, 02:30 AM

Yes he did know you would become atheist Eagle, and no he is not ok with :) Is it a coincidence that you chose these forums to debate this specific topic and I happened to be on here and have spoken this to you? I doubt it. There is still an opportunity. In fact every second you breathe is an open opportunity God gives you. It's great really that you still believe in good and try your best to do so. God admires that. You have a potential that can be greatly used. In fact we all do. The bum on the fwy exit even.

You are right, God cannot be explained in such a way. The fact is, he is meant to be known personally. As in, if you truly want to get to know him, its not through anybody else but yourself. It's you doing the effort and wanting. Followers of Christ do the process of announcing this truth and showing you how. You do the believing.

If I can make a recommendation: read the book ok Job. That's the book that truly impacted me. It wasn't really somebody speaking to me.

ThatRussianBear

10-17-2011, 06:36 AM

Lol y u mad though?

Acid

10-17-2011, 07:52 AM

If he doesn't need our praise then why does he request it all the damn time. But the God of the bible is a Malevolent God. Why? He teaches slavery. He committed mass genocide. He contradicts himself countless times. He fucks up in his own creation. I'm sorry, but this god is not a god worthy of praise.

And it still doesn't make sense for a god to care for just one species on one planet. Seeing as there are billions and billions of other planets out there.

And what about Evolution. That thing that has been proven. And the fact we know the earth is way over 6,000-10,000 years old.

MedeDust

10-17-2011, 10:24 AM

You went very basic Acid. I've heard actual scientist and researchers say the same thing you have and be completely silenced because you guys don't read the scriptures fully through with an open mind therefore you do not understand nor think God is good because you have picked up everything that seems wrong. Just how I and many others have taken our time to look at the views of all religions and beliefs, it's only fair that if you want to call out the evilness in our God that you acually read carefully to fully understand him. I will not try to defend his place as a just God because I have said enough and now it's another one of those cycles. It's either you believe me or not, that's the point of the debate. As for the evolution thing, have you read Mythonian's posts?

RetRdidMunkie

10-17-2011, 11:17 AM

How bout this, everyone shut up, keep your opinions, and let others kepp theirs.

Daaaah Whoosh

10-17-2011, 11:19 AM

I just want to say that the people who wrote the Bible were not scientists. They were regular people, and for anyone to expect them to understand the true nature of the universe, and then write it down using the words they had available to them at the time is kind of expecting a lot. Atheists always take the Bible so literally, but they forget that it wasn't written for us. It was written to convert a bunch of peasants about two thousand years ago. Jesus used metaphors to get his point across, maybe the guys writing the Bible did too.

d3ad1te

10-17-2011, 01:42 PM

Do I believe in god? No.

Is there a god like being(s) or consciousness that created us all? Maybe.

In all honestly I think communism got it right "religion is the opium for the masses." It holds us back.

EDIT:

I was reading earlier posts saying that religion was not the cause of war. In some cases yes, it was the TOOL, to get soldiers to believe in what they were fighting for. Much like Marines instill brotherhood and "duty to country" in their training(basically brainwashing). And in many of cases those "people" have started their own WARS based SOLELY on religion. Crusades. Spanish Inquisition. Salem Witch Hunts.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the Lord your God must die. In this way you will purge the evil from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT

I believe the bible actually describes REAL events. Ancient ruins keep popping up in the most unlikely places. Like 40 ft underwater in the Mediterranean sea. The best part is these ancient cities actually predate the Sumerians, which were thought to be the oldest civilization. We are older than we thought! (http://www.newscientist.com/special/drowned-cities-myths-secrets-of-the-deep)

Mythonian

10-17-2011, 02:15 PM

And what about Evolution. That thing that has been proven. And the fact we know the earth is way over 6,000-10,000 years old.

I'll skip my original idea for what to go into next, and I'll discuss this a bit.

How old is the Earth?

Well, ignoring the fact outlined in my earlier post that the Earth could not possibly have formed naturally (I used the term "coalesce"), let's examine how you could possibly prove the Earth's age...

Scientists, paleontologists, anthropologists, and others usually cite the so-called "fossil record" as irrefutable proof that the Earth is millions of years old. Additionally, stratification of rock and sediment layers contribute to their evidence.

Well, let's look at the fossils...

How do we determine their age? Well, usually we use something called radiometric dating.

In my first post, I said that I wouldn't go into it, but I'll do it anyway since it is now relevant.

Radiometric dating uses the rate of decay of unstable elements to calculate the elapsed time.

To measure it, you need three things:

The half-life of the element (time it takes for half of the total amount to decay)
The current amount of substance that has remained in the fossil
The original amount that would have existed when the fossil was made

Half-lives:

As I've said before, I'm a Chemical Engineer major. I've taken multiple years of Chemistry, and understand the actual atomic and nuclear decay processes.

However, there is something that no textbook will say: decay rates can vary.

That simple statement, seemingly innocent, tears the entire concept of radiometric dating to pieces. The reason it varies is because kinetic energy (i.e., heat) causes decay rates to increase exponentially.

You can't measure something accurately if the rate of decay isn't constant. Here are some instances that prove it is inconsistent:

1. The Apollo 11 mission brought moon rock and soil samples back.

They used some Uranium Lead tests on them and produced four different dates: 4.6 billion years, 5.4 billion years, 4.8 billion years, and 8.2 billion years. Potassium Argon tests on lunar rocks later revealed an age of 2.3 billion years.

How could they get such radically different dates? Well, it is because the decay rates aren't constant.

2. Some volcanic lava rocks from Hawaii were subjected to Potassium Argon testing, and yielded a result of a range between 160 million and 3 billion years.

However, the rocks were taken from a volcano that erupted in 1801!

3. Grand Prairie, Alberta, Canada, 1973. A high voltage line fell and fossilized some tree roots.

Scientists at the University of Regina, Saskatchewan, were asked to date them, but refused because they said the tests "would be meaningless; it would indicate an age of millions of years because heat was involved in the petrification process." Well, there you have it, and that is what I said earlier: decay rates are not certain, and vary greatly with variance in temperature.

4. Carbon-14 is currently the most well-known method of radiometric dating. Let's discuss it, shall we?

It was discovered in 1947 by Willard Libby. It was used to measure organic matter that had died, since all organic matter contains carbon. The half-life of Carbon-14 is claimed to be 5,730 years (even though it varies considerably with temperature).

Let's pretend that temperature doesn't affect it though...

After five half-lives (29,000 years), only 3% remain. After another five half-lives, only 0.09%. Another five, and only 0.003% remain. Another five, and 0.000001% remain.

So, after about 100,000 years, 99.999999% of the Carbon-14 is gone.

Well, how the hell will we measure something that died millions of years ago? We don't have instruments that sensitive whatsoever... We especially didn't have them 20+ years ago, which is when 90% of the current dates were discovered (and scientists are just ignoring the fact that the process made no sense).

Additionally, here are some issues with C-14 dating:

Some living mollusks were killed, and then put through Carbon-14 dating, which put them at 2,300 years old.
An English castle built 800 years ago had mortar which was dated at 7,370 years old.
Fresh seal skins were dated at 1,300 years old.

Here are some known things that can alter Carbon-14 and other radiometric dating in addition to heat:

Atmospheric pollution from volcanic activity and industrial burning.
Solar activity, solar flares, and sunspots
Cosmic radiation from events in our galaxy such as supernova formation
Meteors or larger cosmic bodies falling to earth (look up the "Riddle of the Great Siberian Explosion")

Well, what about the fossil record and geologic charts?

Geologic charts depict the eras in which varying species are supposed to have lived, and then what they evolved into for the next era. It is intended to portray the progressive "ages" of Earth's history.

Here are some proven contradictions in the Geologic chart:

Saber-toothed Tiger. Supposed to be 100,000 to 1,000,000 years old. Carbon-14 gave a date of 28,000 years old.
Natural Gas. Supposed to take 50,000,000 years to form. Carbon-14 gave it a date of 34,000 years.
Coal. Supposed to take 100,000,000 years to form. Carbon-14 gave it a date of 1,680 years.

So, if radiometric dating didn't give us the geologic record, what did? Well, the geologic periods are named entirely with the theory of evolution in mind. The animals present in a specific one are what should be there if evolution was true.

Basically, they made the geologic chart without any evidence whatsoever!

Is there ever any agreement between the fossil record and radiometric dating? NO. They contradict each other more than you think the Bible contradicts itself!

Is radiometric dating itself reliable? NO. It can change due to multiple variables.

I'll make another post later than explains why the earth is only about 5,000 years old.

I was reading earlier posts saying that religion was not the cause of war. In some cases yes, it was the TOOL, to get soldiers to believe in what they were fighting for. Much like Marines instill brotherhood and "duty to country" in their training(basically brainwashing). And in many of cases those "people" have started their own WARS based SOLELY on religion. Crusades. Spanish Inquisition. Salem Witch Hunts.

I believe the bible actually describes REAL events. Ancient ruins keep popping up in the most unlikely places. Like 40 ft underwater in the Mediterranean sea. The best part is these ancient cities actually predate the Sumerians, which are thought to be the oldest civilization by 6000 years. That doubles our "civilized" human history.

The crusades were an attempt to take the wealth of the Middle East. The Middle East had ALL of the major trade routes, because it connected Africa, Europe, and Asia together. The Silk Road, the Royal Road, etc. were all major trade routes, and European leaders wanted the money, so they took advantage of people and started the Crusades. It was not a religious war, religion was the cover story!

The Spanish Inquisition was a political play to try to remove Jewish and Muslim influence from the country. It was almost identical to the current situation of illegal Mexican immigrants. The only difference was that they discriminated by religion while it is currently done by race or nationality.

The Salem Witch Hunts only killed 20 people, and were not wars of any sort. Originally (i.e., hundreds of years before), people were accused of witchcraft and executed for political reasons. Political leaders used it to take out rivals. Then, common people started using it as a means to steal people's stuff (accuse them of witchcraft, and then lay claim to their stuff after they die). When this came to America, it reached Salem. It started off the exact same way, but then children started to play pranks on people and that was when the hysteria began...

VerbotenDonkey

10-17-2011, 02:30 PM

Nocte

10-17-2011, 02:31 PM

Myth. You are seriously a fucking robot aren't you....

LocoCrazy

10-17-2011, 02:35 PM

This is FC now? Thank the creator of vaginas I left.

Mythonian

10-17-2011, 03:14 PM

Not to go offtopic here, but Myth, isn't heat not energy, but energy transfer? Either way, total Energy E = Kinetic + Internal + Potential energy, where Internal is thermal energy. At least that's how I learned it. On a Macroscopic scale though, in number of moles, you might be talking Microscopic, where Internal has little value.

Just the only chance I may have at proving Myth wrong xD

Yes, I was referring to the atomic level. It was in the context of elements and atomic decay, so I thought it was rather obvious...

Energy transfer is enthalpy, while I was referring to raw kinetic energy of particles at any one instance. Kinetic energy of particles is directly proportional to temperature, which is why I simply used the term heat.

Myth. You are seriously a fucking robot aren't you....

Remember, I'm majoring as a Chemical Engineer, so what do you expect?

Also, I've done plenty of research and such on the topic, and have had numerous debates with various people.

However, I dislike the debate about religion... I would much rather have a debate about evolution or something, since we can discuss facts and actual scientific findings instead of science vs religion.

Science vs science is much more interesting. Instead of saying "I believe in God" I can say "Evolution is false and here is the science that proves it".

Which would an atheist believe more? Well, eventually I'll force them to realize that evolution is completely wrong, and that irreducibility proves God's existence...

The concept of irreducibility is that there are things so small and so complex that nothing came before them, they just randomly appeared.

Here is a quick example:

Ever heard of the Proton Pump? It is involved in cellular respiration. In a nutshell, it is the world's smallest battery and charges itself automatically. It is smaller than a bacterium.

This is something that is impossible to evolve. It does not have any transitional phases. It does not have any adaptation benefits. It does not have an ancestor.

If it isn't 100% working, it is 100% not working. Natural selection would push AWAY from it, and yet we have it. Why? Well, because during cellular respiration, it stores energy for later use (i.e., the battery aspect of it). It recharges itself more efficiently and more consistently than any man-made battery that has every existed.

It never dies, and it can continue charging and dispersing for all eternity (well, until entropy catches up, at least). It is made up of a clump of proteins, and is formed by a specific gene in our DNA.

This gene could not have developed through random mutations (which, as I've said earlier, is a foolhardy process to rely on).

Without going into too much detail, it is something that is impossible to have evolved. It makes no sense for natural selection to develop it, let alone that it would remain in our cells. Heck, it has an equivalent even in some prokaryotes! (which seriously screws up every explanation that scientists have thought up).

The only possibility for it is an intelligent designer...

VerbotenDonkey

10-17-2011, 03:20 PM

MedeDust

10-17-2011, 03:26 PM

Mythonian really is Einstein. He discovered a way to never Die so he pretended to have died and went into hiding. Now he's back and showing off :O

Mythonian

10-17-2011, 03:29 PM

Ho-okay. Yeah, as a Medical student, I'm not worried about so much of the atomic level xD So that's where it differs, we don't worry about the heat that the kinetic energy an atom creates when it randomly moves creates. Especially since it's so tedious to measure (if you can. I dont believe you can, but you're an Engineer, you would know if there was any technology to.).

Either way, good points. Mythonian definately holds the points in this arguement. I applaud you, sir.

Well, atoms don't "create" energy. At that level, they have nothing but kinetic energy (except for the gluons holding the nucleus together, which contains chemical energy. When broken, this bond-energy is the cause of atomic bombs and such).

Since they have only kinetic energy, all you need to do is take the temperature of the sample and you can calculate the kinetic energy, which can be related to the velocity of the atoms using the kinetic theory.

If you tried to use a machine to measure it directly, it would be impossible. This is due to the Pauli Uncertainty Principle, which says that it is impossible to know both the direction and speed of an electron simultaneously (if you calculate one you have already changed the other due to the fact that measuring it with light or anything gives it energy so it moves differently).

Basically, we can take an approximation, but it is impossible to calculate it exactly.

Acid

10-17-2011, 06:27 PM

So what you're saying Myth isssss...that you're a robot?

GhostHammer

10-17-2011, 06:30 PM

Quickly off topic, Myth what's your IQ and what did you score on your SAT?

Kuhblam

10-17-2011, 06:41 PM

Quickly off topic, Myth what's your IQ and what did you score on your SAT?

Ignorant scum, Myth created the SAT... and the ACT as well. =P

~Kuhblam

Scarekro

10-17-2011, 07:21 PM

The moral of this story, ladies and gentlemen, is that science trumps all.

Acid

10-17-2011, 07:50 PM

Ignorant scum, Myth created the SAT... and the ACT as well. =P

~Kuhblam

Stop right there criminal scum! Nobody breaks the law on my watch!

Nocte

10-17-2011, 08:41 PM

The moral of this story, ladies and gentlemen, is that science trumps all.

lol you read none of what Myth wrote did you -__-

Mythonian

10-17-2011, 11:21 PM

Quickly off topic, Myth what's your IQ and what did you score on your SAT?

7 years ago (when I was 12) I took a free online IQ test and it told me it was 114 (which I doubt was true). Since then, I've never cared enough to take one.

The SAT is a false test. Their scoring and question system is flawed extremely and doesn't reflect intelligence.

You commonly hear that the SAT is "a test of how well you can take tests" and not of your intelligence. I got a 1980 on it. I missed 2 questions on the math section and somehow lost 80 points (got a 720 out of 800). This is due to one aspect of their scoring system in which they skew results due to "differences in test difficulty". Apparently, they thought I got the easiest test imaginable and made the questions I missed cost 4x the normal amount.

Mathematically, I should have gotten a 760 or 780 on it (depends on rounding), but they gave me a 720 for missing 2 problems...

Also, a full essay in 25 minutes? That doesn't show critical thinking, it shows who can write the fastest...

Anyway, the ACT is better, but still not perfect. I got a 33 out of 36 on that, which placed me in the top 1% of the nation.

Ignorant scum, Myth created the SAT... and the ACT as well. =P

~Kuhblam

I wouldn't create either of them... They are both terrible tests. The ACT is much better than the SAT in terms of being an intelligence test, but neither are very good.

In general, even IQ tests are terrible. Also, IQ scores are incomparable to each other. If one person got a 190 on them, while someone else got 130 on them, they are just as intelligent (If you are curious, read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell).

Overall, standardized tests are rather pathetic... Since they are made to suit the bottom of the barrel, the smartest people suffer due to them being bad tests. They aren't made to be measurements of intelligence, and therefore are terrible indicators for it.

The moral of this story, ladies and gentlemen, is that science trumps all.

Yes. However, be aware that pseudo-sciences such as evolution and others are not science. They are false science.

True science actually gives evidence to an intelligent designer. Textbooks ignore the facts and atheists twist them and give false reports to make it look like it doesn't.

What I've argued against this entire thread is false science.

Al Capone111

10-18-2011, 12:04 AM

Does God exist? I have to say no

Is there a god/higher power/supernatural force/entity that made existence possible? I believe so.

Confused on that last one? Here's how i feel. I have a hard time believing that one or a few all powerful being(s) created the universe out of nothing for the fact that i want to know who created that/those being(s). That's coming from the Atheist side of me. But on the other hand, i also have a hard time accepting that our universe and our existence is all a matter of chance. Because if there was a chance that we could exist, then there was also the chance that we couldn't exist. So i feel that something or someone had to of created this universe for a purpose. That's the religious side of me.

As for organized religion, such as Catholicism, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I have to say i hate the majority of them. Why? Because i find them to be to controlling. Doesn't matter if its a eastern or western religion, it is made to control your life. Each one has a text that tells you what to do and what not to do. My main problem though is with the first three religions i mentioned. Look back on history and you will see just how bloody these religions are. More people have died in the name of "God" than for any other reason. These three religions preach piece and harmony, unless someone believes differently than you do, in which case they must be converted or killed. Anyone remember the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? All the constant killing in the Middle East? What about a little event called 9/11? All were done in the name of "God". Even the holocaust was somewhat based on a religious purpose.

Now I'm not here to try to persuade someone to leave their religion and try to bring down the church. Not at all. I don't push my beliefs onto others as long as they don't push theirs onto me.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter. Because soon Cthulhu will rise and the world will be cast into a eternity of insanity. Or maybe the Mayans were right and the world will end in 2012. Or maybe all religions are wrong and we are just wasting our time discussing the matter.

GhostHammer

10-18-2011, 01:19 AM

Wow, well done Myth!

RetRdidMunkie

10-18-2011, 02:00 AM

Myth. I love you so much now.

Have my baby....

... and I dont mean give birth to a child, I mean take my daughter and make her supahsmart.

EriRi 1138

10-18-2011, 05:49 AM

Alright, I'll go out and say I was raised a Christian. But to this day I'm not sure if I believe in God, or a higher power. There are moments when I feel 'fate' existing in and around me, and there are moments when I consider myself extremely 'lucky' at the same time. I can't prove a higher power exists, and I cannot prove it's inexistence. I've never been one for debating over the topic, simply because I think, despite reasoning and evidence, people have the right to believe in what they want to believe.

If anything, this is how i use religion in my day-to-day life; I don't go to church, I don't read the Bible. But I believe that the vast majority of the lessons learned through Christianity, or even Hinduism or Judaism for that matter can help one become a better person, morally. Hell, (no pun intended) even if you're atheist, you can sit down, read a Bible excerpt, and take away a positive moral message from it, whether or not it really did rain for 40 days and nights or if the Red Sea was parted to save lives. Who the hell cares. Whether or not it's fiction or non-fiction shouldn't matter as long as you can understand the message it carries.

In a nutshell, we can't prove for sure anything is correct or false, and I don't think we should have the right to force our opinions on others, they have the right to free will.

To wrap this up in a way I never could fully put into words until 2007,

Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted.

Scarekro

10-18-2011, 06:59 PM

Yes. However, be aware that pseudo-sciences such as evolution and others are not science. They are false science.

True science actually gives evidence to an intelligent designer. Textbooks ignore the facts and atheists twist them and give false reports to make it look like it doesn't.

What I've argued against this entire thread is false science.

How exactly is evolution a pseudoscience? It's been proven and happens everyday.

Mutation is a perfect example. AIDS, the flu, and the common cold mutate everyday. That's why we can't find a cure. Everytime we get close, the damn things mutate and we're back to square one. Thus, people are encouraged to use protection, get your annual flu shot, and wash your hands when you're done sneezing or coughing.

Over time, a species that finds itself having to adapt to living in caves, or darkness, would eventually adapt to the dark. They begin losing their pigments and natural selection kicks in. Those who have begun to lose pigments will breed with others who have done the same. The result is a bunch of babies without pigmentation. They've adapted to the dark.

Species even evolve together. Co-evolution and co-operation. Take two species, a prey and its predator. Over millions of years of being eaten by the same asshole behind the tree, the prey eventually evolves the production of a toxin. After a while, the predator evolves a resistance to the toxin. And the cycle repeats.

There's even things we have today that we're losing or have already lost because we've lost our need for it. Many believe the appendix was used to digest a certain type of sugar. But we've lost the function of it. Many others believe humans are losing their finger- and toenails because we're no longer climbing trees.

Call it a "theory" or a "model" or what have you, but evolution is science. I respect your opinion, but I don't understand why you say it's basically fantasy.

Mythonian

10-18-2011, 08:20 PM

How exactly is evolution a pseudoscience? It's been proven and happens everyday.

Mutation is a perfect example. AIDS, the flu, and the common cold mutate everyday. That's why we can't find a cure. Everytime we get close, the damn things mutate and we're back to square one. Thus, people are encouraged to use protection, get your annual flu shot, and wash your hands when you're done sneezing or coughing.

Over time, a species that finds itself having to adapt to living in caves, or darkness, would eventually adapt to the dark. They begin losing their pigments and natural selection kicks in. Those who have begun to lose pigments will breed with others who have done the same. The result is a bunch of babies without pigmentation. They've adapted to the dark.

Species even evolve together. Co-evolution and co-operation. Take two species, a prey and its predator. Over millions of years of being eaten by the same asshole behind the tree, the prey eventually evolves the production of a toxin. After a while, the predator evolves a resistance to the toxin. And the cycle repeats.

There's even things we have today that we're losing or have already lost because we've lost our need for it. Many believe the appendix was used to digest a certain type of sugar. But we've lost the function of it. Many others believe humans are losing their finger- and toenails because we're no longer climbing trees.

Call it a "theory" or a "model" or what have you, but evolution is science. I respect your opinion, but I don't understand why you say it's basically fantasy.

DO NOT GET VACCINATIONS! This is a serious safety thing that I advise to everyone! Go to your local library, check out a book on them, and read it! You won't like what you find. Seriously, vaccinations are one of the worst things you can do, and in many ways are worse than taking drugs!! This has nothing to do this with this debate, and I'm just saying this for your safety, DO NOT GET VACCINATIONS! If you don't believe me, please check out a book or something... Don't take it lightly!

(I was thinking about going on a huge rant about it, but I'll hold that for another time. If you want, PM me and I'll put together a summary of it, but it doesn't really relate to this thread much).

Natural selection is true, but evolution is not. There is a significant difference between the two, and I have never said that natural selection is false. You seem to think they are the same, but they aren't.

Species can adapt to environments, but they cannot become new species. This has never been observed, and it isn't something that "is happening."

For AIDS, influenza, etc., they are not "evolving". Even saying that they are "adapting" isn't accurate. Technically, viruses, viroids, and prions aren't even living organisms, so evolving makes no sense anyway. Any biology textbook explains this...

Any use of the word "evolve" is out of context here. Evolution is only a topic for living organisms, which is another thing that any biology textbook would explain.

Also, "curing" a virus (which AIDS and influenza are), a viroid, or a prion (which is what causes bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or "mad cow disease) illness isn't possible. You cannot "cure" them.

The so-called "evolution" of influenza and such that happens every season is a simple point-mutation that occurs constantly in all cells. Every time your body makes a new skin cell, it will, on average, have a couple thousand mutations happen. However, the vast, vast majority make no changes whatsoever, that is because 99% of our DNA isn't coding for genes, but "introns" which are basically junk sections and nothing more.

Conversely, viruses do not have such common introns. Their DNA/RNA section is completely used. This means that even a single point-mutation causes changes. They might change the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase antigens on the surface, which makes any vaccination completely worthless.

Also, some may ask, "well why is it only the flu that changes so fast?" Well, that is because influenza is a collective name given to multiple different "genuses" of viruses. Each individual "species" may have multiple "serotypes", which may have thousands of "strains." Each strain has a separate sequence of RNA. The quotes around genus and species are because they aren't living organisms, but we still try to classify them similarly.

You give numerous examples of natural selection. However, none of those you listed are evolution.

You mention a species getting a toxin, which is something that has never been observed. We've seen species that have already had toxins, but have never seen one organism suddenly get one. In fact, what do you think would happen if your child had a mutation which causes him/her to produce a venom in their body?

Do you seriously think it would work out? Chances are, it would kill them instead of help them... For a toxin to develop, you need a dozen different things to cooperate perfectly. You have to be able to produce it, you have to limit the production, you have to keep it out of your bloodstream (or magically be immune to it at the same time as you developed it, which is ten times as complicated), and you have to ensure that predators get killed by it.

However, actually, toxins are something that would never develop from natural selection. Natural selection is the process by which species adapt to their environment. This means that the species will change in order to better suit its environment. Natural selection is often summarized as "survival of the fittest."

If a species develops a toxin, that doesn't help them survive whatsoever. The toxin would have zero affect until the creature gets killed and eaten! How would it pass on that trait to offspring if it was killed!? Natural selection cannot happen if the change only helps a creature after it is dead! This is because natural selection relies on genetic diversity, which can only occur through genetic mutations.

Toxins only prevent predation because they are already present. Being poisonous only helps if the attacker already knows you're poisonous, which isn't possible if you randomly become poisonous!

For adjusting to a change in environment like you mentioned with losing pigmentation:

That is not a genetic difference, that is an expression difference. The phenotype is changing, but not the genotype. It isn't even natural selection!

Phenotypes are how genes are expressed. (above, I'm not 100% sure I used it in the right context, but it's close enough)

If one person has their pigment gene expressed differently, (i.e., they had less hormones released which caused less production of pigmentation), did their DNA change? No!

Behavioral changes are not genetic changes, even if the behavior is how your genes are behaving!

Who believes we are losing our fingernails and toenails?

Show me your evidence that shows that we are losing our nails...

That is a rather absurd claim. What would you observe with this?

Because we don't use our nails as much, our body isn't growing them as fast. That is a behavioral change as described before, not a genetic change. If you disagree, show me the sequence of DNA that has changed over the last 5000 years that shows we are losing our nails!

The appendix was used to assist in the digestion of cellulose (i.e., plants).

Before we had so much meat (i.e., before about the middle ages), people had 99% of their diet in plants, crops, etc. The appendix was crucial in allowing for the digestion of it. For example, most herbivores have them.

It housed a specific bacteria (similar to how the intestines contain some E. coli bacteria to help digestion), which helped to break down the hard cellulose.

Over the years, as people started becoming a bit "cleaner," the amount of bacteria slowly decreased.

Which people eating less plant-based foods and more meats, and with fewer bacteria being within the appendix, it wasn't being used. What happens to something when you don't use it? Well, it withers.

The fact that our appendix seems useless is because we never use it. At birth, it is actually fully-functioning (in lieu of the bacteria, though), but once it isn't needed, it stops growing in your early childhood.

While the rest of your body grows and expands, it doesn't. This is why it appears to be so small and nonfunctional compared to other organs.

This is very similar to what happens to people who become paralyzed early in childhood. Their legs or other limb does not continue to grow, so a 15 year old might have fully built arms, but legs which are withered and very short.

This is not a genetic change (if it was genetic, we wouldn't have an appendix at all). It is a societal change.

In conclusion:

Natural selection "sometimes" uses real science. However, when evolutionists twist natural selection to suit their goals, it is false science.

Evolution uses other science out of context, presents false or modified reports, and ignores the parts of science that contradict it.

Overall, the secularization of the world is the only reason it can be considered popular. 99% of people who are atheists are only like that because of indoctrination and dogma. I've talked with hundreds of people who said they were atheists from my school and community, and very, very few have any real concept of why they are atheists.

Thank you for giving some examples, Scarecrow. However, be aware that natural selection is not the same as evolution. The common phrase of "evolution through natural selection" shows that difference, in that natural selection is the process, and evolution is the theory which is using the process.

Acid

10-18-2011, 08:51 PM

I am an atheist because I do not believe in a higher being. I was never brought up as an atheist. I learned myself and generated my own opinion through reason and logic. It just seemed like you were implying that all atheist believe dogmatically what science says.

Atheism and belief in evolution don't come in a shared package.

Daaaah Whoosh

10-18-2011, 09:13 PM

Deathhawk

10-18-2011, 10:01 PM

I got into a debate about god once on Omegle. I ended up winning, I said that "God, if he exists, is cruel, because the average life sucks"

He was like "Free will yo, we make our own decisions, anybody can change anything"

so I was like- "Nuh uh. destiny exists bitch."
partner has disconnected.

It was a little more intricate then that, I'll explain that philosophy if anyone's interested.

-As far as my personal opinions go, I'm apathetic about god. I don't question his existence (As in, it's irrelevant to me) but if there is a god, then I'm pretty convinced that we actually live in hell, but I'm more inclined to reincarnation (without karma) anyways.

Captain Poder

10-19-2011, 12:07 AM

I Believe in God fully and truthfully:
of course i have considered the other option of believing in no higher power but it didnt add up... when you are down he helps you indirectly through the bad times as said in this prayer from mary stevensen in 1936

One night a man had a dream.
He dreamed he was walking along
the beach with the Lord.

Across the dark sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene, he noticed
two sets of footprints in the sand,
one belonging to him and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.
[line]
He noticed that many times along the path of his life
there was only one set of footprints.
He also noticed that it happened at the
very lowest and saddest times in his life.
This bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it.

"Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you,
you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life there is
only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when I needed you most
you would leave me."

The Lord replied "My precious, precious child,
I love you and would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints in the sand,
it was then that I carried you

In the good times he guides you in the right direction, but the consequences of your actions are still yours, someone once said
" Everything happens for a reason, for without reason there is depravity." it means that if bad things happen to you it is ment to
teach you a skillset or a moral that you will need down the road, i have two examples. first example is my mom was heavily abused by her
foster parents and her extended family, but today she is the strongest person i know. she has gone through 3 childern with special needs,
a divorce, and multiple deaths in her family. when she should be sad or mourning she is lifting us up every bit of the way with our challenges and struggles.
my second example is my experience, i have been bullied for my whole life just because i was awkward. i have thought of suicide and even getting
myself thrown in prison for killing my attackers. but it wasnt right, it wasnt until i realised that it is their own insecurity that
makes them act offensively towards you. after realising this, i wrote an essay depicting what i felt was the understanding of intelligence

Part of understanding intelligence is revealing the repercussions of the human right to be intuitive and analytical.
From an early age my world has been different; I was smart while being stupid in other regions of my unorganized mind.
My dreams have been rejected by my own inability to bring my thoughts into the written world; I am a social idiot in my own way.
I have been blessed to have my disability and cursed too, I have to work harder to be better than the ordinary people in this world,
I am extraordinary. Because of my disability I have been enabled to see a world in which ordinary people don’t walk in, what seems easy to others is often harder for me.
It would be easy to be crushed by the expectations of the human race. We are efficient, we solve problems and we become smarter every day.
The world moves so fast that any information that we know is doubled in twenty-one days.
My disability forces me to be confined to an entity of myself,
a harder working, more serious image of myself.
I want to attend Westwood College to expand my knowledge and show the world what I can do as a young man with Asberger’s Syndrome.
Cisco Networking Systems is a very hard major that will challenge me to do better than many people around me would think to be possible.
I am blessed to have the opportunity to attend Westwood College for three years.

the reason i am successful is because of my disability, God wanted me to have it so i can show others how live with aspergers syndrome effectively

hes made a difference in my life and ill continue to believe in him as generations in my household always have

Acid

10-19-2011, 09:25 PM

Holy crap, Mythonian. I had no idea that evolution was false. Does that mean that birds aren't really the current-day version of dinosaurs? Because there was that whole thing about velociraptors having feathers and whatnot.

Anyway, to contribute, I think that religion is nice because, at its core, it's about bringing people together and making everyone happier. Of course, it doesn't always work that way, but the most respectable religious people in history were always the ones who fought for peace and equality. As far as I can tell, though, atheism doesn't have such a lofty goal. Atheists just want everyone to stop believing in miracles.

Just because Mythonian said it was false doesn't mean it is. Anyways, the goal of most religion is to convert everyone to there religion. Christianity and Islam are the two big ones on this. Both holy books tell how there religion should be spread, whether it be by the sword or by shoving it down there throat and out there ass.

If Atheism has a goal, it's more or less to teach people to use reason and logic instead of blind faith and dogma.

Kuhblam

10-19-2011, 09:38 PM

I'd just like to make a few points to you guys:

1) Reason and faith are NOT mutually exclusive. They are to be used in coordination together to come up with an opinion/theory of your own. Too many people think today faith and reason are up and away from each other.

2) Logic is in fact an integral part of proving there is an intelligent designer/force behind the universe. Christian Apologetics is extremely involved with the mind and proving simply that there is a God, even if it may not be our individual definitions according to our religions and denominations.

I encourage everyone to look at Thomas Aquinas' five arguments for the existence of A God, not necessarily the Christian God if you want to look at it that way. They are examples of how logic has been used to argue for the existence of a God without "blind faith and dogma." I could explain the Argument from Motion or from Existence for example, if you all would like. Regardless, those five arguments WILL get you over the hump of Atheism. I guarantee it.*

~Kuhblam

*Unless of course you just don't want to read them, in which case I won't force it on any of you.

Carpe Vexillum

11-02-2011, 04:02 PM

I don't mean to revive this topic, but its all just fallacy's and theory's.

You can't prove to someone that there is a god.
Just as they can't prove to you that there isn't.

Edit :: At this point in human history...

SuRroundeD By 1

11-02-2011, 04:28 PM

There are three things in which you cannot convince someone otherwise (rarely at least).

1) Religion
2) Politics
3) Battlefield vs CoD

gato

11-03-2011, 04:44 AM

Trail of Tears

....What. How does religion have anything to do with the trail of tears.

Mythonian

11-03-2011, 03:24 PM

Anyway...

For anyone interested in listening to a professional debate on this topic, here is a link:

The Dawkins-Lennox debate (http://www.fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate).

Also, for anyone interested in a great documentary, watch "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" on Netflix or something.