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VerbotenDonkey
05-23-2012, 01:50 AM
So Salvanous brought this idea up to me, but is too shy to post it, so I will =P I agree, it would be hard to balance, and it would definitely jack up the price of Bombing Raids, but it sounded cool enough to bring up.

Basically, the Bombing Raid would not only affect the War Map, but also the actual battle. At the start of a Match, say something like a bunch of fusion coils would spawn above the players that the Bombing Raid is being used against, and fall from the sky. Same could happen to vehicles? Just to damage them though, perhaps not kill them. This way, it feels like the Bombing Raid is more integrated into the Maps. Obviously it would be a one time spawn thing, just at the start of the Round, to simulate the Bombing Raid. I don't know how balanced that is, but it sounds unique. Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to do with some indoor Maps, or even if we're doing asymmetrical gametypes where each team would play on both sides, so there's a quirk. But I think it sounds pretty neat and would be a nice addition, if it sounds balanced enough.

Thoughts?

MedeDust
05-23-2012, 02:07 AM
Sounds weird.

It would be a hassle to forge and then have it approved.

UNLUCKY NUM13ER
05-23-2012, 02:16 AM
I'm all for it.....if Mythonian is willing to edit the maps ^_^

Fuzzy
05-23-2012, 08:38 AM
Majority of the forge maps do not have the budget required to do this.

Blackhawk570
05-23-2012, 09:52 AM
Majority of the forge maps do not have the budget required to do this.

Sounds like we need to have a FUNDRAISER!!!!!

RaZ Vader
05-23-2012, 10:37 AM
2339

Seriously. I do. I would like to see how this works. Great idea Salvanous.

Anarchy
05-23-2012, 10:57 AM
Seems like a lot of work for something that will be gone in 4 months anyway. I think this idea could work, but it would actually have to hinder the bombed team in some way, otherwise no army would buy it.

As fuzzy said, forge world maps not having the funds is a big deal. Explosives are fairly expensive compared to blocks and such.

VerbotenDonkey
05-23-2012, 11:24 AM
Seems like a lot of work for something that will be gone in 4 months anyway. I think this idea could work, but it would actually have to hinder the bombed team in some way, otherwise no army would buy it.

As fuzzy said, forge world maps not having the funds is a big deal. Explosives are fairly expensive compared to blocks and such.

It's not actually that hard to set up. Just place a few fusion coils in the air and set them to respawn never. Place them around the spawn or over the vehicles. And I haven't checked the Maps yet but it shouldn't be a problem, it wouldn't cost too much. Also, this would be a part of the current bombing raid, so you'd get both. To make it fair, I suppose we could make two types, in case one army wanted the WarMap perk, but not the ingame perk.

Mythonian
05-23-2012, 12:14 PM
1. Budget would definitely be an issue on about half of the maps we currently use.

2. They wouldn't be able to be done on asymmetric maps or some maps where you spawn with a roof right above your head.

3. The following 4 things are possible results of this:

The fusion coils could kill several people. This would mean the opposing team would be almost guaranteed to get every single power weapon and therefore start off with a huge advantage.
Everyone's shields would be depleted (along with a good amount of health), leaving them nearly helpless as the enemies grab all the power weapons like above.
(larger maps, such as Hemorrhage) Their shields come back before any combat happens, meaning it was effectively useless.
Their vehicles are half-dead already, meaning the enemies get immediate map control and therefore are able to get any neutral power weapons almost immediately.


4. As described above, it would be effectively impossible (or insanely difficult) to balance properly. It is not worth it.

5. I am vehemently against any perk that causes the map itself to be changed in an unfair manner. Having skill imbalances between teams is already big enough of a problem. We discussed the possibility of having weapons or vehicles added, but scrapped that for the same reason that it doesn't do any good.

Tl;dr - No.

RaZ Vader
05-23-2012, 01:46 PM
1. Budget would definitely be an issue on about half of the maps we currently use.

2. They wouldn't be able to be done on asymmetric maps or some maps where you spawn with a roof right above your head.

3. The following 4 things are possible results of this:
The fusion coils could kill several people. This would mean the opposing team would be almost guaranteed to get every single power weapon and therefore start off with a huge advantage.
Everyone's shields would be depleted (along with a good amount of health), leaving them nearly helpless as the enemies grab all the power weapons like above.
(larger maps, such as Hemorrhage) Their shields come back before any combat happens, meaning it was effectively useless.
Their vehicles are half-dead already, meaning the enemies get immediate map control and therefore are able to get any neutral power weapons almost immediately.
4. As described above, it would be effectively impossible (or insanely difficult) to balance properly. It is not worth it.

5. I am vehemently against any perk that causes the map itself to be changed in an unfair manner. Having skill imbalances between teams is already big enough of a problem. We discussed the possibility of having weapons or vehicles added, but scrapped that for the same reason that it doesn't do any good.

Tl;dr - No.

You know, I am starting to get irritated when people say to try and "balance" things with skill and such things. WE were a war-sim community, and having this thrown in would bring back what I founded this place on. Fun. Balance was something I never was concerned about... No body cared. all is fair in love and WAR. Balancing a war isn't a war. Its silly.

This idea is pure fun. I love it. If "damaging" people and vehicles is your concern, you can always have the fusion coil spawn in an open area that won't affect anything.

If budget is your concern, well then we can't do shit. An idea that I liked cuz I see it being fun and bring a certain feel back.. this kinda stuff always get shot down without even trying? How sad..

Mythonian
05-23-2012, 01:56 PM
Well, if everyone else wants it, I'll comply. But I see no good coming from this.

I try to keep everything balances so that people don't complain as much. If they are playing with balanced teams, people have fun. Which is what we want them to have. When a lesser skilled team goes against a higher skilled team and gets destroyed, they don't have fun.

When a lesser skilled team goes against a higher skilled team, gets destroyed, and also has fusion coils raining down at them at the start, they definitely won't have fun.


We both want them to have fun. I want them to have fun with close, balanced games. You want them to have fun with a realistic, intense warsim atmosphere. Unfortunately, in this case, I don't think we can have both.

VerbotenDonkey
05-23-2012, 02:11 PM
There are several ways you can even it out. Since it is an offensive perk, make it so you can't combine it with Ambush. This way, attackers can't choose both the gametype AND cripple the opponents at the start of the game. Also, it would definitely boost the perk up in terms of purchase, so it would decrease the overall amount of cR an Army has (although with vCash in abundance, it isn't such a negative trade-off).

Salvanous
05-23-2012, 02:17 PM
First off as I finally come into this whole discussion, Donkey, the reason I didn't bring this forward is because of a lot of the reasons said above, not only that, but then it also comes down to really applying fusion coils in the right place to get just the right amount of boom, if you do it too accurately, then the other team has absolutely no fun, you do too little, and it was a complete waste of Vcash, and resources for the forged map.

In an ideal world, we could have the time, and budget to do something like this, because I can tell you that I personally would love to see army purchases having a more physical effect. I do believe that Vcash could hold much more value, if what you bought with it you had a more physical aspect to it. As it is right now, it's like okay, I am going to spend 5,000 Vcash to buy a bombing raid and basically what I get back is "Okay, you have applied a bombing raid to this zone, you have destroyed one brigade" and it can be a bit of a lack luster feel to it. I can tell you right now, if I knew that I could see the other team blown sky high because I spent my cash for my army, you can bet that I would spend my cash for the army, and feel like I made a larger contribution.

In reality, I understand that Myth is a busy guy, and I could give you ideas as to implementing a physical aspect of all army purchases to a map, but as Myth is the only one forging these maps, then it can be rather tiring, if not a complete struggle to keep sanity and a good mood in some of the worst cases. If we had a forging team for these maps, and if we did have the resources to do this, and do it right, then I would say it is a really cool ideal, but even if the idea was good, I would HIGHLY suggest that what we do, is try it out on a mock battle night, and have one side get bombed, and then another and see how everyone feels about it after.

Continuing on with the aspect of the making the purchases feel more physical, I do definitely understand why we don't mess with maps and potentially make them altered in such degree, but let me throw this out there, just to be the devil's advocate to my own devil's advocate: If we make these purchases, and these army perks have a more physical touch to them, then we can see our newer, or less active members seeing, and feeling a more like we have our own unique brand on Halo maps, as well as it makes some of our members more interested in how our wars work. I can tell you right now, that as an enlisted, I can say that at least 95% those who haven't touched an Officer's rank don't care too much, or even read up on our rules of engagement, and to spawn say next to a physical (operational?) AA gun would also make them more interested in why they have it, and how they can have it more often.

I'm not saying that we necessarily do this idea, but I think it appropriate not to just squash it. Maybe hold what I have said with a small grain of truth, and see what we can do with Halo 4, hopefully we can see forging becoming even easier for the community, while providing more materials to work with.

and now I say tl;dr- I say tinker with it, don't expect to use it for Halo Reach, see what you can do in Halo 4. If tested, do so in mock battlenight.

RaZ Vader
05-23-2012, 02:22 PM
people suck these days...

VerbotenDonkey
05-23-2012, 02:22 PM
Well of course we should test it Salv, lol xD It wouldn't have been something just tossed into it without seeing how damaging it actually is. And if you use the Evade loadout, you could probably dodge the Fusion Coils all together, although leaving you with an Assault Rifle. In a 15 minute match though, although it does put you out at a slight disadvantage, I think it's worth a test. Hell, I volunteer to be bombed first.

RaZ Vader
05-23-2012, 02:26 PM
TEST! I love tests!

Mythonian
05-23-2012, 02:29 PM
Something I just remembered...

Due to how Reach is set up, the map starts running 10 seconds before the game begins (i.e., the loadout camera where you choose your initial loadout). This means that the fusion coils would need to be so high that it takes about 10-11 seconds for them to hit the ground.

Very few maps have that much space above the spawns. Basically, the only maps that is possible on is Forge World maps (and maybe some other larger ones). And even for those, it has to be ones where the spawns aren't under an overhang or roof.

That right there makes doing this much more complicated... -.-

silversleek
05-23-2012, 02:30 PM
i agree with myth, i don't see anything good coming from this. Some of the weaker teams will be completely wrecked if this is used on a map. nobody would have fun, because contrary to popular belief, it's not that fun to just dominate everything repeatedly.

Salvanous
05-23-2012, 02:37 PM
What the idea would mean for indoor maps like countdown, is that they wouldn't be applicable to that map as they are indoors, the idea is more really just that, a fun idea in my head. Frankly, to make this work best, you would need to set the whole aspect of our rules of engagement, factor in both sides, as well as individual player skill and start dissecting and tinkering with all our rules and see some things changed, and or altered (not gone, but like for example, seeing various other army purchases become available as other purchases became more limited)

In total, I do believe this is something that we would need to put in our back pockets and see what Halo 4 gives us before we go forging.

VerbotenDonkey
05-23-2012, 02:45 PM
Integrated Mine Field bypasses all these problems. =P

But yeah, there are probably more downsides than upsides. I really don't see it making that big a difference overall, just something fun during the beginning of a match, hell even if it were done when everyone was in the loadout camera mode, and explosives were just raining from the sky, to do some aesthetical work.

Ronglar
05-23-2012, 03:23 PM
Yeah, this does sound like a pretty beast idea. I approves.

Graycochea
05-26-2012, 01:24 PM
If the Captain approves, I approve.

Ex Zen Mute
05-26-2012, 01:32 PM
I say no.
If we do it for one, we do it for all.