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  1. #11

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchy View Post
    I'd guess most people aren't thinking that way. Most people don't want to crucify a bunch of people for skill. But the focus on competition has been creeping up on us a while, and it should still be addressed. People can only practice so much, and while yeah there will always be groups performing better, at some point there's a certain dispersion in skill that has to be addressed in a civil manner for everyone's benefit. It gets painted in a "burn them till they submit" type suggestion, but it's really not, it's just people wanting some sort of progressive measures to prevent exceptionalism, regardless of guessing the cause or motive. It's still an issue IMO, though the solution is obviously not a civil war of turning on eachother that's perceived.

    Back to the suggestion, FC has to evolve. The majority of us aren't 16 year olds clamoring to get on every single Sunday because we have tons of free time and Halo is like the only decent multiplayer game option besides CoD. Judging Halo's population demographic, that won't change anytime soon. We all want wars to be fun, and frankly having less might make them more fun just by being less in our face. If we focus on the fun, the growth will come easily over time.
    Everything you've said here I completely agree with. I pointed out in the War Council meeting that although there is a possibility of members getting better at Halo by playing a lot, they would require about 16 hours a week for a long time before they're maybe at the point of not getting whomped on Sunday. We all know that the people here absolutely do not have enough time for that, albeit that they actually want to get better at Halo.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    I'm with Jam, I don't see not having battles every weekend as a solution. Personally, I WANT to battle every Sunday, I used to look forward to battles every week. Sunday was the best day of the week!

    I mean, I'm all for trying it if everyone else wants to (although I work on opposite weekends so if the battles would be on my weekend to work I would never make them anymore lol) but I think pushing away what FC is isn't going to help. Lets be honest, FC is about those Sunday night battles.



    Also, the answer to skill imbalances this vast should never be "git gud." If it's close matches between Squads, then yes, but sometimes the skill imbalance is so great and people have lives too.
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  3. #13

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by VerbotenDonkey View Post
    but I think pushing away what FC is isn't going to help. Lets be honest, FC is about those Sunday night battles
    Isn't this just a way to say, "let's not change anything"?
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  4. #14
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Soap View Post
    Isn't this just a way to say, "let's not change anything"?
    No, it's a way of saying, "let's not fix what isn't broken." That assumes that our event schedule isn't broken, of course, but that's the argument he's making.

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  5. #15

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchy View Post
    This was probably the most reasonable depiction of what's going on in FC with a reasonable change and timing I've seen in pretty much forever.

    I might suggest an "Every other week" battle night instead, with the inbetweens alternating between a bye and a "lore" type event. Just a suggestion. Ultimately either course is pretty reasonable. People can argue all day about the why, but at the end of the day wars aren't being as fun as they were, and that much is true for almost everyone.


    I'd guess most people aren't thinking that way. Most people don't want to crucify a bunch of people for skill. But the focus on competition has been creeping up on us a while, and it should still be addressed. People can only practice so much, and while yeah there will always be groups performing better, at some point there's a certain dispersion in skill that has to be addressed in a civil manner for everyone's benefit. It gets painted in a "burn them till they submit" type suggestion, but it's really not, it's just people wanting some sort of progressive measures to prevent exceptionalism, regardless of guessing the cause or motive. It's still an issue IMO, though the solution is obviously not a civil war of turning on eachother that's perceived.



    Back to the suggestion, FC has to evolve. The majority of us aren't 16 year olds clamoring to get on every single Sunday because we have tons of free time and Halo is like the only decent multiplayer game option besides CoD. Judging Halo's population demographic, that won't change anytime soon. We all want wars to be fun, and frankly having less might make them more fun just by being less in our face. If we focus on the fun, the growth will come easily over time.
    Having it every 2 weeks with a rotation is reasonable, but I wanted to have the "bye-week" to allow for these cool Halo 5 tournaments where people can compete to see who is the best in a true competitive atmosphere. Working the other way, I wanted to have those that want to enjoy the lighter side of gaming to enjoy themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    General concensus here is that wars aren't as fun, right? And that people get burned out by the time peacetime rolls around?
    But what about what happens during peacetime? People are eager to get back to the war within a few weeks as well.

    I don't think the schedule of battles is the issue here. That "burnout" is a product of baser issues that color player attitudes during the war. Interarmy differences, personal conflicts across army lines, malcontent attitudes towards leaders, balance-induced drops in motivation, etc. Perhaps we should be addressing those issues rather than throw more time between events?

    If you extend the delay between battles, you lengthen the war even more, and those issues that hurt morale during war will still be there even during "bye" weeks. Then they will be there infecting members for twice or three times as long as they are now.
    Because the issue is with the pressures and frustrations associated with Battlenight. That's what's causing these issues, it's a side effect. How long have we been looking for that "perfect solution" for "fixing" Battlenight or even the players. You're welcome to try, I've spent the last year looking for that solution. How much longer has others spent? With a decrease in pressure, this will inevitably lead to a decrease in frustration levels. The very frustration levels that lead to blaming others and getting angry and having meltdowns. This targets those levels of frustrations. In theory by decreasing the frustrations, the frequency of "incidents" decreases dramatically.

    Note how I said "in theory." Only by taking the unsure leap can we see if this will work and only if people keep an open mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Soap View Post
    Everything you've said here I completely agree with. I pointed out in the War Council meeting that although there is a possibility of members getting better at Halo by playing a lot, they would require about 16 hours a week for a long time before they're maybe at the point of not getting whomped on Sunday. We all know that the people here absolutely do not have enough time for that, albeit that they actually want to get better at Halo.
    That's ridiculous. This is why I want my solution to see the light. I still stand firmly that you must improve your skill as a squad in order to start winning, but that's... excessive. Perhaps with a longer hiatus, squads can focus on chemistry and togetherness rather than being together solely on their hate for Battlenight. No one gets better that way...

    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
    I posted before I read this, but I do think this is an objection that needs to be addressed. If the wars are going smoothly Nervy's plan is solid. When stuff isn't going very well, all we are doing with this system is delaying the inevitable and allowing more time for discontent to be spread.
    Then it is one more solution we know won't work eh?

    And yes I am taking the "MLG" approach because that's what competition is. Some are better than others. There's no other good solution other than you have to dedicate to getting better. Maybe if my solution works and numbers increases, we can implement that "tiering" system talked about in the past

    Quote Originally Posted by VerbotenDonkey View Post
    I'm with Jam, I don't see not having battles every weekend as a solution. Personally, I WANT to battle every Sunday, I used to look forward to battles every week. Sunday was the best day of the week!

    I mean, I'm all for trying it if everyone else wants to (although I work on opposite weekends so if the battles would be on my weekend to work I would never make them anymore lol) but I think pushing away what FC is isn't going to help. Lets be honest, FC is about those Sunday night battles.



    Also, the answer to skill imbalances this vast should never be "git gud." If it's close matches between Squads, then yes, but sometimes the skill imbalance is so great and people have lives too.
    This implies that we must "keep on going" a method that we've been using for the last... whole time I've been here. No, this isn't working anymore, I'm sorry.

    I feel for you, I do. Vets remember fondly the days when there was Battlenight and everything was great. I don't believe it was as glamorous, but hey nostalgia is great and I do it too! However, it must be recognized that the methods of old do not work anymore. No longer can Sunday be the "best day." Now it's "Holy fucking shit time to do this bullshit than put it on repeat like broken record of getting my windpipe crushed by dem good kids."

    Again still stand by my practice approach to skill imbalance because there is no other actual solution save removing people. There are ways to alleviate the frustrations associated with the pressures of this which is exactly what this solution targets. This solution adds variety. Having Battlenight every goddamn week is just growing stale. It's like Nascar except every left turn is a catastrophic crash. I can't remember the last time a Battlenight went smoothly.


    I will make some edits at the bottom to fully flesh out many concerns brought to me when I get the time. Please remember that if we don't do something, we're just gonna keep slowly dying. I've spent the better part of my career in FC trying to come up with solutions and this is the only one I truly believe could work if an open mind is kept. It's not perfect and sacrifices will have to made. Not having Battlenight every Sunday is one such necessary sacrifice...
    Last edited by NervyDestroyer; 12-08-2015 at 06:46 PM.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    I'd need to see a detailed breakdown of what these lore events would actually be. They'd need to be thought-out well enough and of a scale that makes people interested in attending, as it'd be acting as an alternative to the Battle Night. It would also need to complement and interact with the wars in a meaningful way that's directly influenced by the members that attend.

    I'm not outright opposed to something along these lines. I'm at the point where any pretenses and notions of "this shouldn't be changed" are being reconsidered, so I won't throw anything out without fully considering it.

    Depending on the minutiae, this has potential benefits which could be worthwhile to pursue. The big hurdle for it to overcome would be offering an experience of a scale comparable to Battle Nights.

    Also, as a few others have said, "bye weeks" seem unnecessary. Simply alternating BN/Lore weeks would most likely be plenty, at least during testing of the idea. If we end up having regular tournaments/events/contests, we could add in bye weeks for them on an as-needed basis.

    EDIT: Should also say that I think this concept would fit best if used alongside other fixes. Stand-alone, this would have minimal effects. Combined with other changes in certain areas, the potential can be brought out more.
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  7. #17

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Finally. Lore. What I have been saying for years. That is when FC started to decline, when Lore was omitted.

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  8. #18
    Senior Citizen VerbotenDonkey's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    This implies that we must "keep on going" a method that we've been using for the last... whole time I've been here. No, this isn't working anymore, I'm sorry.

    I feel for you, I do. Vets remember fondly the days when there was Battlenight and everything was great. I don't believe it was as glamorous, but hey nostalgia is great and I do it too! However, it must be recognized that the methods of old do not work anymore. No longer can Sunday be the "best day." Now it's "Holy fucking shit time to do this bullshit than put it on repeat like broken record of getting my windpipe crushed by dem good kids."

    Again still stand by my practice approach to skill imbalance because there is no other actual solution save removing people. There are ways to alleviate the frustrations associated with the pressures of this which is exactly what this solution targets. This solution adds variety. Having Battlenight every goddamn week is just growing stale. It's like Nascar except every left turn is a catastrophic crash. I can't remember the last time a Battlenight went smoothly.
    If the battle nights aren't working, then having them every week or every other week wouldn't matter, people would STILL not be looking forward to them and the result would be the same. So it obviously isn't that it's every week and more in line with how the battles are performing. It isn't that people are overwhelmed with playing every week, it's more of the fact that there isn't anything to look forward to.

    Also once forge releases, I'm more than willing to rework the LARP as long as there is still interest and the forge maps are actually good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Soap View Post
    Isn't this just a way to say, "let's not change anything"?
    No, this is just saying that I don't agree we are looking at the right angle of changing things.
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  9. #19
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by VerbotenDonkey View Post
    Also once forge releases, I'm more than willing to rework the LARP as long as there is still interest and the forge maps are actually good.
    What if we could rebuild the "Lore" to be an actual function of our events? By that I mean, we take the results of battles, the state of the warmap, and the existing army units, and have a weekly publication that details these things in story form? Didn't Myth start that once? The newspaper reporter Jonathan Craig?

    If we continue to look at Lore as an optional and separate deal from battles, then it's never going to mean anything. If we can't present a cohesive story that actually has something to do with the battles we fight, then Lore will never be a factor that helps distinguish us from other communities.


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  10. #20
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    What if we could rebuild the "Lore" to be an actual function of our events? By that I mean, we take the results of battles, the state of the warmap, and the existing army units, and have a weekly publication that details these things in story form? Didn't Myth start that once? The newspaper reporter Jonathan Craig?

    If we continue to look at Lore as an optional and separate deal from battles, then it's never going to mean anything. If we can't present a cohesive story that actually has something to do with the battles we fight, then Lore will never be a factor that helps distinguish us from other communities.
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