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  1. #31
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
    I really can't imagine a system like this ever working. You mentioned that groups of 3 or 6 wouldn't be sufficient to form a team, so you wouldn't be able to simply combined teams of 3. That means that some of the groups of 3 would be split and others would not. That seems like you'll be playing some sort of favoritism deciding who should be split from their draft group.

    I also don't really understand that advantage of drafting in a group of 3. Are you trying to let people stick with old friends?

    A group of 3 seems like we are losing a lot of the advantages of a player draft (namely fine grain adjustments) without actually creating any value. The only way I can really see this working is if everybody in FC has a circle of 3 friends. Anytime somebody has a 4th person in that circle, somebody is going to be left out and that will most definitely create drama.
    I wouldn't be splitting up any groups of three - not everyone will be in one of those groups. Recruits, loners, returning inactives, etc. would fill in the 4th slot. It's a way of adding diversity while still allowing some groups to remain constant. However, FC is a warsim, and playing with all of your friends on events should not be guaranteed. If there's a group larger than three friends, tough cookies. Chances are, that fourth friend actually has a fifth friend, and that fifth friend has a sixth friend, etc. Cyberdyne was full of all my friends back in the day, but 18 of us couldn't play on the same team in battles.

    I don't think this is strictly true. Popularity is an important part of leadership. What leader is any good if everybody hates him? He is going to have a lot of fun getting a whole lot of nothing done.

    There are leadership characteristics that are very important outside of popularity, but since everybody has a different idea or what characteristics they want in a a leader it is very hard to have some sort of arbitrary group of people select a leader that represents what the people of the army want.
    I agree. If WC picks leadership, it's functionally a popularity contest with far fewer voters.


    Real power comes from the man next to you and is built on the foundations of brotherhood and unity. There is no such thing as a one man army.

  2. #32

    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by NervyDestroyer View Post

    I'm against public voting because leadership isn't a popularity contest. Leadership also should have absolutely no lobbying whatsoever which almost inevitably happens with direct public elections. Should be a system of succession for that IMO.
    Lobbying is changing the decisions of those already in power. I believe what you're thinking of is campaigning. Which is normal, even in healthy democracies.

    People are popular with others usually for good reason. I've honestly yet to see an FM being elected simply because they're everyone's friend and not because they deserve the job, even when it's someone I don't personally support. And in a community that is, again, a community, a little bit of that isn't awful. We should be supporting those who commit themselves to being friends with everyone, not just whoever makes the best bureaucrat.

    Frankly elections are the only thing that keep kept FC from having political dynasties against member approval.

    In a community where people will vote for whoever puts FC on the path they like, people will vote against people putting us on a path they don't like. And it's the people who should determine where we go, not whoever happens to be in WC at the time of hypothetically removing elections.

    tl;dr - There's always a moral hazard & adverse selection problem with leadership. Elections prevent leadership from having the power to keep themselves in power though.



    Virtus Tentamine Gaudet
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  3. #33
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    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    I wouldn't be splitting up any groups of three - not everyone will be in one of those groups. Recruits, loners, returning inactives, etc. would fill in the 4th slot. It's a way of adding diversity while still allowing some groups to remain constant. However, FC is a warsim, and playing with all of your friends on events should not be guaranteed. If there's a group larger than three friends, tough cookies. Chances are, that fourth friend actually has a fifth friend, and that fifth friend has a sixth friend, etc. Cyberdyne was full of all my friends back in the day, but 18 of us couldn't play on the same team in battles..
    I'm still not convinced that groups of 3 is the right way to do a draft.

  4. #34

    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchy View Post
    Lobbying is changing the decisions of those already in power. I believe what you're thinking of is campaigning. Which is normal, even in healthy democracies.

    People are popular with others usually for good reason. I've honestly yet to see an FM being elected simply because they're everyone's friend and not because they deserve the job, even when it's someone I don't personally support. And in a community that is, again, a community, a little bit of that isn't awful. We should be supporting those who commit themselves to being friends with everyone, not just whoever makes the best bureaucrat.

    Frankly elections are the only thing that keep kept FC from having political dynasties against member approval.

    In a community where people will vote for whoever puts FC on the path they like, people will vote against people putting us on a path they don't like. And it's the people who should determine where we go, not whoever happens to be in WC at the time of hypothetically removing elections.

    tl;dr - There's always a moral hazard & adverse selection problem with leadership. Elections prevent leadership from having the power to keep themselves in power though.
    Democracy is certainly pretty and I won't go into detail about why it's pretty.

    It's functionality is literally just to be pretty. As a form of leadership it basically ensures that no change will ever happen whatsoever because people are naturally resistant to any form of change. Familiarity = Comfort.

    Explains why no change has happened in the last 2 and a half years despite the stagnation slowly killing us.

    People don't know what they want till they get it so elections are effectively useless because it's whoever looks the prettiest. A shiny rapier is more pretty than a dirty swiss army knife. Too bad the rapier doesn't have much usage when compared to the swiss army knife.


    It doesn't matter and I don't really care if it doesn't change. It does the job okay enough from an FC standpoint.
    Last edited by NervyDestroyer; 12-12-2015 at 04:22 PM.
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  5. #35
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
    I'm still not convinced that groups of 3 is the right way to do a draft.
    I don't think there is a right way. My way has as many drawbacks as any other.


    Real power comes from the man next to you and is built on the foundations of brotherhood and unity. There is no such thing as a one man army.

  6. #36

    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Explains why no change has happened in the last 2 and a half years despite the stagnation slowly killing us.
    No one has hardly wanted to run in 2 years. I doubt it would be any different if, say, Mythonian chose the FMs instead. (Just as an example)

    That being said, thinking that allowing WC to effectively choose themselves as leaders over and over is a lesser risk than people simply voting for people who don't get things done when no one really runs is counter-intuitive. If the right candidates want to run, I trust people to pick the right person. And if they don't, is telling them they're wrong and letting a few elite choose someone else really a good idea? Even if WC chooses to select someone who is a better FM, if the majority of the community/army wanted someone else, you wont see anyone standing on desks shouting "Oh captain my captain" for an FM they're forced to follow.

    People don't know what they want till they get it
    I'm sorry but that... That is just... A bit insulting to people's intelligence. I cannot agree with anything that takes choice and power out of the majority's hands and puts it in the hands of a select few who can then essentially re-elect themselves. Nor can I fathom how anyone would. Elections aren't perfect but they're a lot better than leadership choosing leadership. FMs select the WDs, then the WDs select the FMs. What could possibly go wrong?



    Virtus Tentamine Gaudet
    FM For 6 wars spanning 3 generations

  7. #37

    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchy View Post
    No one has hardly wanted to run in 2 years. I doubt it would be any different if, say, Mythonian chose the FMs instead. (Just as an example)

    That being said, thinking that allowing WC to effectively choose themselves as leaders over and over is a lesser risk than people simply voting for people who don't get things done when no one really runs is counter-intuitive. If the right candidates want to run, I trust people to pick the right person. And if they don't, is telling them they're wrong and letting a few elite choose someone else really a good idea? Even if WC chooses to select someone who is a better FM, if the majority of the community/army wanted someone else, you wont see anyone standing on desks shouting "Oh captain my captain" for an FM they're forced to follow.



    I'm sorry but that... That is just... A bit insulting to people's intelligence. I cannot agree with anything that takes choice and power out of the majority's hands and puts it in the hands of a select few who can then essentially re-elect themselves. Nor can I fathom how anyone would. Elections aren't perfect but they're a lot better than leadership choosing leadership. FMs select the WDs, then the WDs select the FMs. What could possibly go wrong?
    If you disagree with me it's fine. Merely critiquing the system as a whole. I have no intention of making a big deal out of it
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  8. #38

    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    http://goo.gl/forms/pBEaEa5VrV

    There you go. This would be interesting to see the responses on. (Everyone can see the responses here (I think), but they're anonymous.)

    (Please don't be an ass and do it multiple times. )
    Last edited by Legendary Nova; 12-13-2015 at 05:47 AM.

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  9. #39
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    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legendary Nova View Post
    http://goo.gl/forms/pBEaEa5VrV

    There you go. This would be interesting to see the responses on. (Everyone can see the responses here (I think), but they're anonymous.)

    (Please don't be an ass and do it multiple times. )
    The problem with a poll like this is that people may select the same category and mean different things or select different categories and mean the same thing. You need more than just a 3 word bullet to fully understand what each point means.

  10. #40
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: FC Mission Statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
    The problem with a poll like this is that people may select the same category and mean different things or select different categories and mean the same thing. You need more than just a 3 word bullet to fully understand what each point means.
    I agree. I made the example as concise as I could with enough detail to get the idea across, but it's still widely open to interpretation and devoid of probably a dozen other good categories that we could evaluate the community on.


    Real power comes from the man next to you and is built on the foundations of brotherhood and unity. There is no such thing as a one man army.

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