Warmap + forge/test department

[RemcoTheRock]

Evening to you all.

I have a suggestion/problem with the forge/map department.

As we can see on the War map there is a lack of original halo 5 maps (made by 343), We have 20 maps, 8 of them are 343 maps made for Halo 5 gametypes, and then we have 12 forge maps, some which are remakes.

i don’t have a problem with to many forge maps in the warmap… But to be honest most of the forge maps ive played on, have had problems with spawning, or were not enjoyable to play on. The remakes we use feel too true to there predecessors. As in they are made for a more classical slayer game type, not Halo 5. (Which comes with Sprint, Clamber, Ground Pound, Charges)

For spawning i will use Sidewinder as an example, we either spawned on REDD cliff or BLUE Cliff most of the time. Wide open for a DMR to shoot at us or right next to there tele so they can come out and kill us with a shotgun. Rarely did players spawn at there own base.

We need to test these maps out more thoroughly, before being used in the Wars. This part is not a suggestion, this is a must. Broken maps only hurt us in the long run, they discourage new recruits from coming back, upset current members, and alot of excuses can be tossed around after the match.

If we look at this map made by an forger in halo 5, he made an original map all that is actually build for halo 5 spartans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8uqUaLoAk

This is a fun map to play on and also this map is made for competitive gameplay.
That is how a competitive forge map in halo 5 should look like, cause it plays right they have thought about where you could clamber on what would be a great route to have cover to have a skilljump and all.

The Remakes are for a nostalgic feel, because most of them are made to look and feel exactly as the map played in a previous iteration of Halo.

I suggest for the time being until our forge department has throughly tested the forge maps they wish to add to the warmap, that we use the default 343 studios maps.

[Solus Exsequor]

fuck off Remy

[VerbotenDonkey]

fuck off Remy

Was that necessary?

[Legendary Nova]

As we can see on the War map there is a lack of original halo 5 maps

There's a lack of original Halo 5 maps. Period.

i don’t have a problem with to many forge maps in the warmap… But to be honest most of the forge maps ive played on, have had problems with spawning, or were not enjoyable to play on. The remakes we use feel too true to there predecessors. As in they are made for a more classical slayer game type, not Halo 5. (Which comes with Sprint, Clamber, Ground Pound, Charges)

When the first war map was scheduled to be created, Forge had just come out so there weren't many maps to choose from. We ended up going with the best we could find at the time.

I suggest for the time being until our forge department has throughly tested the forge maps they wish to add to the warmap, that we use the default 343 studios maps.

Like I said above, there weren't (still aren't) enough default maps to support our warmap and we needed to get a war started.



We're definitely open to map suggestions for future wars, and if you really want to help out with the forging, you're welcome to join the department.

[RemcoTheRock]

There's a lack of original Halo 5 maps. Period.



When the first war map was scheduled to be created, Forge had just come out so there weren't many maps to choose from. We ended up going with the best we could find at the time.



Like I said above, there weren't (still aren't) enough default maps to support our warmap and we needed to get a war started.



We're definitely open to map suggestions for future wars, and if you really want to help out with the forging, you're welcome to join the department.

I get your points in the fast decisions you guys had to make to get the warmap ready so you just bookmarked some files without knowing what kind of problems they would have in a halo 5 competitive gameplay.
But i don't get why you guys just decided to have more forge maps you should have known if we looked at previous halo's the first forge maps made by people are just... terrible. and in this case with all the extra's a halo 5 spartan brings to the fight (clambering, charging, etc) it can't fit the competitive game style.

This is a warmap that will probably last a long time before you guys have to make a new warmap and every warmap had a long time of being active so i don't get why you guys decided to put more forge maps in there instead of the 343 maps that are actually not broken and don't have spawn issues.
Because in the beginning of forge/new halo there is always a great lack of good/great competitive forge maps made by players.

Me joining is not the only way of solving the issue with the warmap/ forge maps in the warmap, i think a better forge department and a better test department will solve the problems already. Because i know the last BTB map we played on BN (Sidewinder) has never been tested and has been forged once by our department... after the practice on saturday without giving us a heads up that he changed the map so we could see what changed and could get used to the map before BN started.

it's litteraly not fun to play on broken maps that are not tested and not forged to make the gameplay for halo 5 spartans, it's only fun to play on with your friends if you want to have a custom game night without that competitive feeling, because the map is already broken so why not enjoy the fun of the broken map while you kill each other.

and there are 8 original 343 maps in the warmap, 343 got around 13 to 17 maps when forge came to halo 5. i still don't understand why you guys did not made the decision to start halo 5 with a smaller warmap so there would only be 343 maps in there so we could all have fun without any problems and/or isseus.
the war would last shorter but i think nobody of FC would mind if it would last shorter because if it means that they won't have to play a longer war with broken maps and after the short war there will be better competitive forge maps made by players everyone would say yes to that (in my eyesight).

excuse my bad english in writing.

[Mythonian]

Okay, sorry I hadn't read through this thread until now. First of all, thank you for the feedback. Constructive criticism always helps. I'll talk about the main point of the thread at the end of this post.

Before that, I can tell there are a lot of misconceptions, so I'll clear up what I can and respond to the relevant topics.

Because i know the last BTB map we played on BN (Sidewinder) has never been tested and has been forged once by our department... after the practice on saturday without giving us a heads up that he changed the map so we could see what changed and could get used to the map before BN started.

This is totally false and I don't know who keeps spreading this misinformation.

The map was forged and adjusted 4 times throughout that week. Twice before Saturday, for instance, and on Saturday I received feedback and suggestions to improve the map, so I immediately got on and made the adjustments within a half-hour. Then, I announced those changes in the same Skype Group that REDD was using to organize their scrims, letting every single officer know of the changes. This was in the middle of scrims, not afterward, and people were still scrimming for nearly another hour after the changes were made.

The changes were made because of feedback, and the announcement was made in a chat that was actively being used and viewed by almost all of REDD officers at the time. Afterward, I even specifically asked if people approved of the removed sniper rifle and how the H1 Magnum felt on the map, but nobody gave me any more feedback after that. If someone missed the announcement messages at the time, its their own fault, not mine, and I'd really appreciate if people could stop blaming me for this.

and there are 8 original 343 maps in the warmap, 343 got around 13 to 17 maps when forge came to halo 5. i still don't understand why you guys did not made the decision to start halo 5 with a smaller warmap so there would only be 343 maps in there so we could all have fun without any problems and/or isseus.

9 of the maps are 343 maps, actually, and we did use a smaller warmap for this war, for the exact reason you were suggesting. Average map count is 24. Just for reference, here's every war since the start of Reach:

• Res1: 20
• L2: 20
• L1: 24
• Rec5: 30
• Rec4: 30
• Rec3: 30
• Rec2: 30
• Rec1: 30
• Rev5: 18
• Rev4: 18
• Rev3: 18
• Rev2: 24
• Rev1: 18

Am I the only one who enjoys the forged maps we have? The only problem I had with Sidewinder was that the DMRs respawned in mid, which allowed people to sit on mid and watch teleporters without ever having to leave for ammo. But besides that, I think the map played fine, even with spartan abilities.

You are not the only one with that opinion. I received feedback from numerous people that they feel the map isn't being fairly criticized or that it played fine for them. (they also almost always agree that the DMRs should be removed and that it'd improve the map greatly)

But also what solus said we are already losing people because of this problem and i can't understand why our test department didn't test those maps before putting them in it's so easy to just send the FC community messages and inv's to test a map and with our feedback the test department immidiatly knows if they have to forge more in that map or just remove it or put it in the warmap.
It isn't the job of the practices to test those maps because it's already to late those maps are already in the warmap.

It's just as simply as it is: the forge department and the test department have to work together more often but before they do that they have to do their jobs as forgers and/or testers instead of just putting maps in the warmap because time ran out...

Very good idea. We did exactly that, and for 3 months we did testing sessions on a weekly basis. This was the point of the Beta War and even after that ended, the Forge Department hosted weekly Testing Sessions for another 5 weeks. I got heaps of feedback about almost all of the 343 maps and dozens of forged maps.

Yet when the army leaders decide they want more remakes instead of the forged maps I said were well-made, we end up with our current warmap. It wasn't a problem with the forge department that we didn't test the maps, it was that the maps we tested were overlooked in favor of other maps for the sake of nostalgia.

I'm all up for switching out a few of the maps, though.

(should clarify that I had no intention of pointing fingers or anything, the FMs had no malicious intent and did not try to fuck things up by any means. For the most part it was an in-the-moment situation and things just kind of ended up this way)

Also should add that several of the tested maps that were actually chosen (Park Viery, Highfire, Zircon, and a few others) just haven't been played yet. They all work great in a competitive game and were tested extensively.

I recall at the point of map selection someone raised the point that midway through selection there was a large abundance of forged maps. I'd prefer more disc bound maps or H5 unique maps in order to match up to the gameplay and mechanics of H5

Yeah, that was me raising that point. I mentioned it before we even started choosing maps also, also stating that we should try keeping forged maps down to 8 at the most. When REDD chose 8 of their 10 starting maps as forged maps I kind of facepalmed.

Will joining the Forge department solve the issues with the maps THIS WAR, or will they be addressed the next war? The issues being broken spawns, maps not fitting our new Spartan abilities, weapon and vehicle placement and flow of the map.

Joining wont fix the problems unless you are a good forger that can give very specific suggestions or make necessary modifications when needed.

To fix the problems, what I need is feedback. If a map is played in practice or if someone is just running around a map, I need opinions and suggestions. There are only so many hours in the week, and I can't do everything. I can fix 95% of the issues on a map but people will still complain about the remaining 5%. For instance, the DMRs on Sidewinder weren't something I realized would become an issue like they did. Getting feedback from as many people as possible is the most direct way to improving how the maps play.

{INSERT ALL POSTS ABOUT SPARTAN ABILITIES}

Specifically on Sidewinder, how did Spartan Abilities mess up the map? Did Sprint let you move around too quickly? Did Clamber let you get to places you shouldn't be able to go to? I'd say no, and also that the spartan abilities caused no issue with the map. If anything, they improved the map because of the added mobility options.

While sandbox differences are inevitable, the presence of sandbox differences does not inherently mean that the map plays poorly or that the flow is bad. Issues with map flow or mobility is usually a separate thing entirely.

{INSERT ALL POSTS ABOUT SPAWN ISSUES}

Halo 5 spawns work like this:

• Find locations close to teammates.
• Remove locations within ~20 meters of enemies.
• Remove locations in enemy line-of-sight. (upto a specific range)
• Spawn player at location.

On Sidewinder, you leave the base almost immediately and never head backwards, due to the nature of the map itself. Therefore, every time the game was finding a spawn point for you, it spawned you at either Cliff, Rampart, or Room. This was where your teammates were almost always located at, so of course it spawned you close to your teammates. The rare times you spawned at the base was because the enemies blocked most spawns at those 3 locations.

This is just how it works in H5. I can't forcibly make you spawn at the base without making the base the ONLY place you spawn at, which is just asking for an insane spawn-trap. This is just how 8v8 spawns work in function, and by no means does it mean spawns are broken.

Broken spawns would be things like spawning at the enemy flag in CTF or out in the middle of nowhere without any cover.

---

So, on to the main point of the thread: a suggestion to replace a few forged maps with 343-made ones.

I'd be fine with either way. Maps like Sidewinder, Waterworx, Coagulation, and Halvalla were not tested before they were put into the warmap, so potentially switching them for a better alternative could be done. WC briefly touched on replacing Sidewinder, which will likely happen at some point, and since it seems there's some discontent about things we will certainly look at switching out a few.

Since the warmap was made, I've been bookmarking a bunch of newly forged maps that look good and were stated as playing good competitively, so we have some alternatives that can be used.

Thanks for the feedback about the warmap. I like receiving as much feedback as possible, and if you want to feel free to message me whenever about things, either in a PM or via Skype. This goes for everyone. I can't magically find every problem that exists, so having people point them out is very appreciated! (generally, also giving a suggestion for how to fix a problem is also appreciated instead of just telling me "it's broken!" This thread suggested a fix by replacing some maps with 343 maps, for instance, instead of just complaining)

[RemcoTheRock]

Thanks for the explanation and happy to hear that you want to make changes in the warmap by changing some forge maps with 343 original maps.
Sadly to hear that the information about the changes in sidewinder didn't came through to all REDD army this isn't your fault like you said.
But i think you can't make changes 24 hours before BN after we practiced we can't practice 2 more hours after the changes it is impossible, and there should be a poll whenever people give feedback about a map that doesn't fit their ideas completly it shouldn't be changed immidiatly if you get feedback from a few guys and definitely not 24 hours before BN because everybody practiced on the map without the changes.

You probably didn't got any feedback about the changes with the changes on sidewinder because alot of redd army left that night because of the changes and after the whole BN we were all in a bad mood.

But moving on to the tests why did we test 3 months on those maps before making a decision ( a bad decision) and also what you said there were 4 maps that were never tested... you can't just put maps in a official warmap without testing it. I can understand not testing official 343 maps but forge maps that players made just a few weeks after forge got released should always be tested.
Also what we said earlier the halo 5 mechanics don't always fit in the original old halo maps, remakes of old halo maps is a job for 343 studios not us players. We can of course make them but players that make remakes don't think about the new abilities halo 5 offers in those remakes. it fuckes up the whole entire flow.
The maps that players made that are not remakes and are made to be a great competitve map for halo 5 spartans those are the maps you should have in a warmap because the forgers who make those maps thought about the spartan abilities of halo 5 spartans they make the map so it has a great halo 5 competitive flow.

I don't want to talk shit but whenever the army leaders go for (horible) remakes instead of well made forge maps you should say something istead of just accepting it, if you guys would have an discussion we would maybe have 2 remakes or not even 1 and more 343 maps and the forge maps in the warmap would have been well made for halo 5 spartans.
I don't know if army leaders tested those maps as well but if they don't you should always inform them about the lacks of the forge remakes or you should put them into the tests so they know what they are picking.
if one of those did happen i'm stunned and don't know why the army leaders still picked the remakes instead of well made forge maps and/or more 343 maps.

ofcourse we understand that 1 man can't do all the forging in this community and fix issues but that's why there is a forge department with more people in there that can forge as well right?
Because if you can't do something at 1 point someone else of the forge department will be online and can take care of it, it's not that hard.
And if you make changes to a map let there be a small test on that map at practice for exception so we can give you immidiatly feedback if we wanna go through with those changes or that we rather see something else changed.

I can't say much about the spartan abilities but they break the flow of a remake my english is not that good to go in detail in text.
The spawns on sidewinder were just horrible in a slayer matchmaking i have never spawned and 2 secs later got killed and had to wait another 8 secs. to respwan but on sidewinder this happened a lot.
if we looked at sidewinder there was some use of the vehicles in the forst 1/2 minutes but after those vehicles got destroyed we only used the mantis because walking to your base to pick a warthog took to long or you were already dead before you could see the hog.
i don't care if that is how the spawn system works in halo 5 it should be removed and never be played again in a warmap because it's super easy to spawn trap/kill people and there is no use of playing BTB on that map because vehicle use is not in that map because of the spawns.

You can't change the spawn system that is something we all know you are not god himself but what you can do is remove the map if the spawn system fucks up the gameplay on that map.

Good to hear you want to change some maps i think we should test those 3 maps you guys never tested before pulling them out of the warmap and test every single one of the forge maps again to see what breaks the gameplay and the flow of the map, if we can fix it we fix it if we can't it should be replaced. to my opinion.

[Solus Exsequor]

seriously though, good ideas Remy. You've actually captured what the most of our squad has thought for weeks and suffered at the hands of for weeks

- - - Updated - - -

Was that necessary?

It's an inside joke

[L0rd Kanti]

I stand with Remy on this. I have yet to enjoy a single forge map remake on the warmap.

I am aware that the forge department isnt at it best right now, i however I will not sit around and play on a broken map like sidewinder again. Maybe that's childish thinking, but I wanna have fun right before I return to my weekly grind.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[Barry Soap]

I don't know if it's a problem with the maps or if it's a problem with the skill imbalance we have unfortunately at the moment.

The spawns we had on those maps are probably pretty accurate to what they were on the original maps - but I'd say at least one of the reasons for all the remake maps is because both armies will be on an even playing field until they practice and get used to them.