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  1. #21
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    Re: Warmap + forge/test department

    Okay, sorry I hadn't read through this thread until now. First of all, thank you for the feedback. Constructive criticism always helps. I'll talk about the main point of the thread at the end of this post.

    Before that, I can tell there are a lot of misconceptions, so I'll clear up what I can and respond to the relevant topics.

    Quote Originally Posted by RemcoTheRock View Post
    Because i know the last BTB map we played on BN (Sidewinder) has never been tested and has been forged once by our department... after the practice on saturday without giving us a heads up that he changed the map so we could see what changed and could get used to the map before BN started.
    This is totally false and I don't know who keeps spreading this misinformation.

    The map was forged and adjusted 4 times throughout that week. Twice before Saturday, for instance, and on Saturday I received feedback and suggestions to improve the map, so I immediately got on and made the adjustments within a half-hour. Then, I announced those changes in the same Skype Group that REDD was using to organize their scrims, letting every single officer know of the changes. This was in the middle of scrims, not afterward, and people were still scrimming for nearly another hour after the changes were made.

    The changes were made because of feedback, and the announcement was made in a chat that was actively being used and viewed by almost all of REDD officers at the time. Afterward, I even specifically asked if people approved of the removed sniper rifle and how the H1 Magnum felt on the map, but nobody gave me any more feedback after that. If someone missed the announcement messages at the time, its their own fault, not mine, and I'd really appreciate if people could stop blaming me for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by RemcoTheRock View Post
    and there are 8 original 343 maps in the warmap, 343 got around 13 to 17 maps when forge came to halo 5. i still don't understand why you guys did not made the decision to start halo 5 with a smaller warmap so there would only be 343 maps in there so we could all have fun without any problems and/or isseus.
    9 of the maps are 343 maps, actually, and we did use a smaller warmap for this war, for the exact reason you were suggesting. Average map count is 24. Just for reference, here's every war since the start of Reach:

    • Res1: 20
    • L2: 20
    • L1: 24
    • Rec5: 30
    • Rec4: 30
    • Rec3: 30
    • Rec2: 30
    • Rec1: 30
    • Rev5: 18
    • Rev4: 18
    • Rev3: 18
    • Rev2: 24
    • Rev1: 18

    Quote Originally Posted by VerbotenDonkey View Post
    Am I the only one who enjoys the forged maps we have? The only problem I had with Sidewinder was that the DMRs respawned in mid, which allowed people to sit on mid and watch teleporters without ever having to leave for ammo. But besides that, I think the map played fine, even with spartan abilities.
    You are not the only one with that opinion. I received feedback from numerous people that they feel the map isn't being fairly criticized or that it played fine for them. (they also almost always agree that the DMRs should be removed and that it'd improve the map greatly)

    Quote Originally Posted by RemcoTheRock View Post
    But also what solus said we are already losing people because of this problem and i can't understand why our test department didn't test those maps before putting them in it's so easy to just send the FC community messages and inv's to test a map and with our feedback the test department immidiatly knows if they have to forge more in that map or just remove it or put it in the warmap.
    It isn't the job of the practices to test those maps because it's already to late those maps are already in the warmap.

    It's just as simply as it is: the forge department and the test department have to work together more often but before they do that they have to do their jobs as forgers and/or testers instead of just putting maps in the warmap because time ran out...
    Very good idea. We did exactly that, and for 3 months we did testing sessions on a weekly basis. This was the point of the Beta War and even after that ended, the Forge Department hosted weekly Testing Sessions for another 5 weeks. I got heaps of feedback about almost all of the 343 maps and dozens of forged maps.

    Yet when the army leaders decide they want more remakes instead of the forged maps I said were well-made, we end up with our current warmap. It wasn't a problem with the forge department that we didn't test the maps, it was that the maps we tested were overlooked in favor of other maps for the sake of nostalgia.

    I'm all up for switching out a few of the maps, though.

    (should clarify that I had no intention of pointing fingers or anything, the FMs had no malicious intent and did not try to fuck things up by any means. For the most part it was an in-the-moment situation and things just kind of ended up this way)

    Also should add that several of the tested maps that were actually chosen (Park Viery, Highfire, Zircon, and a few others) just haven't been played yet. They all work great in a competitive game and were tested extensively.
    Quote Originally Posted by Solus Exsequor View Post
    I recall at the point of map selection someone raised the point that midway through selection there was a large abundance of forged maps. I'd prefer more disc bound maps or H5 unique maps in order to match up to the gameplay and mechanics of H5
    Yeah, that was me raising that point. I mentioned it before we even started choosing maps also, also stating that we should try keeping forged maps down to 8 at the most. When REDD chose 8 of their 10 starting maps as forged maps I kind of facepalmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by L0rd Kanti View Post
    Will joining the Forge department solve the issues with the maps THIS WAR, or will they be addressed the next war? The issues being broken spawns, maps not fitting our new Spartan abilities, weapon and vehicle placement and flow of the map.
    Joining wont fix the problems unless you are a good forger that can give very specific suggestions or make necessary modifications when needed.

    To fix the problems, what I need is feedback. If a map is played in practice or if someone is just running around a map, I need opinions and suggestions. There are only so many hours in the week, and I can't do everything. I can fix 95% of the issues on a map but people will still complain about the remaining 5%. For instance, the DMRs on Sidewinder weren't something I realized would become an issue like they did. Getting feedback from as many people as possible is the most direct way to improving how the maps play.
    {INSERT ALL POSTS ABOUT SPARTAN ABILITIES}
    Specifically on Sidewinder, how did Spartan Abilities mess up the map? Did Sprint let you move around too quickly? Did Clamber let you get to places you shouldn't be able to go to? I'd say no, and also that the spartan abilities caused no issue with the map. If anything, they improved the map because of the added mobility options.

    While sandbox differences are inevitable, the presence of sandbox differences does not inherently mean that the map plays poorly or that the flow is bad. Issues with map flow or mobility is usually a separate thing entirely.
    {INSERT ALL POSTS ABOUT SPAWN ISSUES}
    Halo 5 spawns work like this:
    • Find locations close to teammates.
    • Remove locations within ~20 meters of enemies.
    • Remove locations in enemy line-of-sight. (upto a specific range)
    • Spawn player at location.

    On Sidewinder, you leave the base almost immediately and never head backwards, due to the nature of the map itself. Therefore, every time the game was finding a spawn point for you, it spawned you at either Cliff, Rampart, or Room. This was where your teammates were almost always located at, so of course it spawned you close to your teammates. The rare times you spawned at the base was because the enemies blocked most spawns at those 3 locations.

    This is just how it works in H5. I can't forcibly make you spawn at the base without making the base the ONLY place you spawn at, which is just asking for an insane spawn-trap. This is just how 8v8 spawns work in function, and by no means does it mean spawns are broken.

    Broken spawns would be things like spawning at the enemy flag in CTF or out in the middle of nowhere without any cover.



    So, on to the main point of the thread: a suggestion to replace a few forged maps with 343-made ones.

    I'd be fine with either way. Maps like Sidewinder, Waterworx, Coagulation, and Halvalla were not tested before they were put into the warmap, so potentially switching them for a better alternative could be done. WC briefly touched on replacing Sidewinder, which will likely happen at some point, and since it seems there's some discontent about things we will certainly look at switching out a few.

    Since the warmap was made, I've been bookmarking a bunch of newly forged maps that look good and were stated as playing good competitively, so we have some alternatives that can be used.

    Thanks for the feedback about the warmap. I like receiving as much feedback as possible, and if you want to feel free to message me whenever about things, either in a PM or via Skype. This goes for everyone. I can't magically find every problem that exists, so having people point them out is very appreciated! (generally, also giving a suggestion for how to fix a problem is also appreciated instead of just telling me "it's broken!" This thread suggested a fix by replacing some maps with 343 maps, for instance, instead of just complaining)
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  2. #22

    Re: Warmap + forge/test department

    First of all I would like to thank you Mythonian for hitting the main points of our problems with the warmap, and doing your best to fix the maps that were given to you to work with.

    On the subject of Spartan abilities, they will vary from map to to map, mostly on remakes. On the Construct remake, ball carriers are able to Ground Pound from the top of Yellow lift to the bottom. Very interesting to learn, and frustrating to deal with in game. Team pushes have the potential to be nullified. Sure you could pre promethean nade in the lift but that will only weaken in most cases, or have someone posted at the bottom of the lift but there pretty much useless if they don't ground pound, or immediately thruster out of yellow and level 2 or 3. This becomes a inherent problem of all Forge remakes, remade to look, play, and flow like they did before.

    I say this because you have to look at with a ripple effect, when a map is designed it has a flow to it. We take a remake, most of us understand how it flows. We see it with old eyes, but then we start seeing all new paths and all of the sudden the flow has changed. Sometimes its not so bad, to me most of the Construct works, but for Oddball not so well. Sometimes these ripples affect the game play greatly too, as with the DMR on Sidewinder which I am happy to hear the most of us agree did not work well.

    With Map edits, it is upsetting to here that you alerted who you could and nothing came of it. They have on REDD side acknowledged that this is will not happen again, that in the future we will be made alert in a timely manner. I myself try to participate in the surveys when I get a chance.

  3. #23

    Re: Warmap + forge/test department

    Thanks for the explanation and happy to hear that you want to make changes in the warmap by changing some forge maps with 343 original maps.
    Sadly to hear that the information about the changes in sidewinder didn't came through to all REDD army this isn't your fault like you said.
    But i think you can't make changes 24 hours before BN after we practiced we can't practice 2 more hours after the changes it is impossible, and there should be a poll whenever people give feedback about a map that doesn't fit their ideas completly it shouldn't be changed immidiatly if you get feedback from a few guys and definitely not 24 hours before BN because everybody practiced on the map without the changes.

    You probably didn't got any feedback about the changes with the changes on sidewinder because alot of redd army left that night because of the changes and after the whole BN we were all in a bad mood.

    But moving on to the tests why did we test 3 months on those maps before making a decision ( a bad decision) and also what you said there were 4 maps that were never tested... you can't just put maps in a official warmap without testing it. I can understand not testing official 343 maps but forge maps that players made just a few weeks after forge got released should always be tested.
    Also what we said earlier the halo 5 mechanics don't always fit in the original old halo maps, remakes of old halo maps is a job for 343 studios not us players. We can of course make them but players that make remakes don't think about the new abilities halo 5 offers in those remakes. it fuckes up the whole entire flow.
    The maps that players made that are not remakes and are made to be a great competitve map for halo 5 spartans those are the maps you should have in a warmap because the forgers who make those maps thought about the spartan abilities of halo 5 spartans they make the map so it has a great halo 5 competitive flow.

    I don't want to talk shit but whenever the army leaders go for (horible) remakes instead of well made forge maps you should say something istead of just accepting it, if you guys would have an discussion we would maybe have 2 remakes or not even 1 and more 343 maps and the forge maps in the warmap would have been well made for halo 5 spartans.
    I don't know if army leaders tested those maps as well but if they don't you should always inform them about the lacks of the forge remakes or you should put them into the tests so they know what they are picking.
    if one of those did happen i'm stunned and don't know why the army leaders still picked the remakes instead of well made forge maps and/or more 343 maps.

    ofcourse we understand that 1 man can't do all the forging in this community and fix issues but that's why there is a forge department with more people in there that can forge as well right?
    Because if you can't do something at 1 point someone else of the forge department will be online and can take care of it, it's not that hard.
    And if you make changes to a map let there be a small test on that map at practice for exception so we can give you immidiatly feedback if we wanna go through with those changes or that we rather see something else changed.

    I can't say much about the spartan abilities but they break the flow of a remake my english is not that good to go in detail in text.
    The spawns on sidewinder were just horrible in a slayer matchmaking i have never spawned and 2 secs later got killed and had to wait another 8 secs. to respwan but on sidewinder this happened a lot.
    if we looked at sidewinder there was some use of the vehicles in the forst 1/2 minutes but after those vehicles got destroyed we only used the mantis because walking to your base to pick a warthog took to long or you were already dead before you could see the hog.
    i don't care if that is how the spawn system works in halo 5 it should be removed and never be played again in a warmap because it's super easy to spawn trap/kill people and there is no use of playing BTB on that map because vehicle use is not in that map because of the spawns.

    You can't change the spawn system that is something we all know you are not god himself but what you can do is remove the map if the spawn system fucks up the gameplay on that map.

    Good to hear you want to change some maps i think we should test those 3 maps you guys never tested before pulling them out of the warmap and test every single one of the forge maps again to see what breaks the gameplay and the flow of the map, if we can fix it we fix it if we can't it should be replaced. to my opinion.

  4. #24
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: Warmap + forge/test department

    Here's the bottom line: Myth spends more time on Halo preparing our maps for Battles than he does playing, and more time on FCwars.net making the posts that keep our war running than he does chatting. He works tirelessly to make these wars work, and any more baseless complaints about the results of those efforts are going to be disregarded at best.

    Note that Sidewinder was essentially tested for the first time under FC settings during the week we played it. If anyone wants to complain that maps should be tested more before going into the WARMAP, attend the map testing nights. Hell, we'll bring them back during the war if that's what it will take. Myth got most of his feedback for the map on Saturday night. Best way to avoid that time crunch is to play the maps earlier in the week, or even earlier in the war.

    We're not 343. Our testing team is YOU. Our Forge Department is YOU. Our recruiters are YOU. If you see something lacking in the community that is causing a problem, be the change!

    TALK IS CHEAP. WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE? DO SOMETHING.
    Last edited by Jam Cliché; 03-16-2016 at 07:14 PM.


    Real power comes from the man next to you and is built on the foundations of brotherhood and unity. There is no such thing as a one man army.

  5. #25

    Re: Warmap + forge/test department

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    Here's the bottom line: Myth spends more time on Halo preparing our maps for Battles than he does playing, and more time on FCwars.net making the posts that keep our war running than he does chatting. He works tirelessly to make these wars work, and any more baseless complaints about the results of those efforts are going to be disregarded at best.

    Note that Sidewinder was essentially tested for the first time under FC settings during the week we played it. If anyone wants to complain that maps should be tested more before going into the WARMAP, attend the map testing nights. Hell, we'll bring them back during the war if that's what it will take. Myth got most of his feedback for the map on Saturday night. Best way to avoid that time crunch is to play the maps earlier in the week, or even earlier in the war.

    We're not 343. Our testing team is YOU. Our Forge Department is YOU. Our recruiters are YOU. If you see something lacking in the community that is causing a problem, be the change!

    TALK IS CHEAP. WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE? DO SOMETHING.
    Update on this, GHOST practice ran a full few games of Deep Freeze 6v6 and had Myth along for testing. We gave feedback and the map was edited. Simple? I'm agreeing here, we need to make a difference but we need to be given ample time to practice on a finished article. Saturday at any point is too late for a change, Friday at very latest for me and for GHOST is acceptable.

    We are going to continue running our practices doubled as a testing ground, any BLUEs are also welcome such as they were last night and it was a pleasure to have them along last night.
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