Debate #2 (Religion/God)

[ThatRussianBear]

Not sure if troll or just joking

[Mythonian]

Its not possible to disrupt a debate with an opinion, an as stated.in op's post: do not reply to a comment if you are butthurt about it.

Debates are not about opinions, there are about rebuttals, which are like this:

Person A: This is my view, and I use this evidence to support it.
Person B: I disagree with your view, and I use this evidence to contradict you.

And it repeats.

Someone that simply says "You're wrong!" or "You're stupid!" are people who ruin debates.

Modern science is just a scapegoat before future science. Just look how we can make stuff go faster than the speed of light now. That's not supposed to be possible.

We haven't made anything go faster than the speed of light that I've heard of. What are you referring to?

[Daaaah Whoosh]

Mythonian, I'm afraid that you know what I'm talking about, which would somehow make me wrong, but I think it was neutrinos at CERN. It was a big thing, people wrote articles on it.

[Nocte]

Russian as OP. Knock it the hell off. Everything Mede said about the way you acted is completely true, as is what Myth said about debates.

As to Myth your first post sums up everything I've tried to learn about the universe by sitting and reading for hours and watching hours of documentaries... and I hate you for being able to remember it all haha

Now back on topic.

Mede I have to ask what do you mean by you were attacked by demons? Cause I am going to tell you right now, their are plenty of things that can be psychological that you think are demons but your mind is only making them up. Because the Sumerians believed that demons were just simply just spirits, not ones with evil intentions just spirits.

[Spartanbh]

Mythonian, I'm afraid that you know what I'm talking about, which would somehow make me wrong, but I think it was neutrinos at CERN. It was a big thing, people wrote articles on it.

I believe the book and movie Angels and Demons (which was one of my favorite books of all time) by Dan Brown (the guy who wrote The Da Vinci Code) was about that event that involved trying to create Anti-matter to establish a link between Science and God. CERN has done some stuff that can definitely explain some relations...but I haven't really done enough research to fully understand it.

[Daaaah Whoosh]

Angels and Demons was just about antimatter, Spartan, and how it would help understand the universe. It din't have anything to do with stuff moving faster than light, but it would be a great example for this discussion. If it weren't for the fact that the primary argument in favor of religion in that book would be torn to shreds here.

[Acid]

Angels and Demons was a over-exaggeration of Anti-Matter. It would take a long time to make as much as they portrayed in the novel/movie.

But, if I remember correctly, Intelligent Design has been but to the "scientific test", meaning they used the scientific method to try and prove it, and they failed.
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@Mede. I was a Christian at one point and time too. The only reason was because of indoctrination and dogma. If we have disproven the Bible, that which we have, then why believe in a god that so heavily relies on the bible to be true for his existence.

Plus now that I've seen it from a different point of view, it just seems strange that god would create humans, get made at something he created, wipe the majority of them out, then impregnate a virgin (which was physically impossible in that day and age), to give birth to himself, to kill himself, to satisfy himself, for something that he pretty much started. That and he demands your praise all the damn time. Pretty egotistical of him, isn't it?

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@Kuhblam

...before you blow up on anybody...

At first I read this as "...before you blow up anybody..."

[Daaaah Whoosh]

Acid, you're going to have to elaborate on that whole scientific method thing, but I'm just going to assume I can refute that point.

But anyway, you're forgetting that we really don't know all that much about God. The Bible is nice for people who can't think for themselves, but it's way more opinion than fact sometimes, I will give you that much. The way I see it, God is like a guy who's suddenly been given more power than he's used to: he does some crazy stuff with it, just because he can. If things don't work out, then he starts over. It makes sense to me, because I could see myself doing the same thing in His position. Not sure if that helps out anyone else, because no one else is as crazy as I am.

[Mythonian]

Mythonian, I'm afraid that you know what I'm talking about, which would somehow make me wrong, but I think it was neutrinos at CERN. It was a big thing, people wrote articles on it.

I just did a bit of research and know what you're talking about now. The neutrinos passed a point 60 nanoseconds (0.00000006 seconds) earlier than they should have.

Here is my thoughts:

Due to the exotic and uncertain nature of neutrinos (we understand rather little about them), and also the fact that we cannot measure things perfectly, it is easily within the margin of error.

Also, how do they know when the particles finished? The only way to observe their position is with a laser which would be interrupted when they pass.

However, the laser would impart kinetic energy onto the particles, changing their acceleration and therefore pushing them off center. (extrapolation of Pauli Uncertainty Principle)

Also, the fact that the supercollider is a giant circle causes centrifugal forces to act on the particles. This would skew results.

So, therefore the time difference is within the margin of error and is certainly a mechanical issue.

As to Myth your first post sums up everything I've tried to learn about the universe by sitting and reading for hours and watching hours of documentaries... and I hate you for being able to remember it all haha

Now back on topic.

Mede I have to ask what do you mean by you were attacked by demons? Cause I am going to tell you right now, their are plenty of things that can be psychological that you think are demons but your mind is only making them up. Because the Sumerians believed that demons were just simply just spirits, not ones with evil intentions just spirits.

I've read hundreds of books and watched dozens of documentaries on this topic, as well as being involved in multiple debates.

I am not a devout Christian. Mede is 100x the Christian I am.

I believe in God because I decided that atheism is full of so many holes and issues that I cannot stand to agree with it whatsoever. I'll get into it more tomorrow...

But, if I remember correctly, Intelligent Design has been but to the "scientific test", meaning they used the scientific method to try and prove it, and they failed.
_________

@Mede. I was a Christian at one point and time too. The only reason was because of indoctrination and dogma. If we have disproven the Bible, that which we have, then why believe in a god that so heavily relies on the bible to be true for his existence.

Plus now that I've seen it from a different point of view, it just seems strange that god would create humans, get made at something he created, wipe the majority of them out, then impregnate a virgin (which was physically impossible in that day and age), to give birth to himself, to kill himself, to satisfy himself, for something that he pretty much started. That and he demands your praise all the damn time. Pretty egotistical of him, isn't it?

Here are some other things that fail the scientific method test: evolution, the big bang, radiometric dating, galactic formation, order-from-chaos.

Here is why: to pass the scientific method, you must (1) test it, and (2) observe the results.

Evolution:

• To test it, you can try to get a creature to mutate into something that can be considered another species in which either the complexity has increased or it has better adapted to an environment. We have introduced many artificial mutations and seen the results, and have observed thousands throughout nature. However, NONE of those have been positive changes (unless you consider artificially changing the DNA in a way which is utterly impossible without God existing).
• To observe it, watch a creature change into another species. This has never been observed. We have onl seen what has already been around for thousands of years, and nothing new has ever evolved which we have observed.

Big Bang

• How the hell would you test it? CERN tried to do something, but got insanely self-contradicting results...
• What would you observe? So far, we have always observed the opposite happening: that nothingness does not explode.

etc., etc.


Wait, how was the Bible disproven? If the fact that it fails the scientific method prove the Bible false, haven't I just disproven almost every science textbook? lol



I agree, it is indeed strange that God would do such a thing. But, it is also strange for you to think about how it is strange. The very fact that we think at all is so incomprehensibly unknown that there aren't really any other options than saying we are the work of God.

Biologically, it makes no sense for us to think. Chemically, it makes no sense for us to think. Physically, it makes no sense for us to think. The electric impulses in our brain do not understandably translate into thinking.

Our "closest ancestors" as Evolution describes the apes, are comparatively stupid. They do not think, at all. They have a memory, can relate objects or feelings, but that is all. The very concept of abstract thought is something that only humans can do. The difference between actual thought and memory is much more than it seems, and evolution (i.e., the changing of DNA) cannot explain it.

I'm majoring as a Chemical Engineer. Believe me when I say it that the chemistry between our brains and apes are, for all intents and purposes, effectively identical. The electric impulses are identical. Therefore, there is no reason for us to have thought if apes don't.

So why do we? Well, because we were made in God's image.

[MedeDust]

Mede I have to ask what do you mean by you were attacked by demons? Cause I am going to tell you right now, their are plenty of things that can be psychological that you think are demons but your mind is only making them up. Because the Sumerians believed that demons were just simply just spirits, not ones with evil intentions just spirits.

I wasn't psycho at all in fact I had a great child hood. I was one of the best students at my school put through alternative advanced programs which I rejected later on.

What I meant by it is visual beings, and spiritual beings, as you mentioned. Yes this does mean I believe in what people call "ghosts".

There really isn't much I can tell you because its the same story all the time. Somebody sees something supernatural, they can hardly prove it, so hardly anybody believes them.

@Mede. I was a Christian at one point and time too. The only reason was because of indoctrination and dogma. If we have disproven the Bible, that which we have, then why believe in a god that so heavily relies on the bible to be true for his existence.

Plus now that I've seen it from a different point of view, it just seems strange that god would create humans, get made at something he created, wipe the majority of them out, then impregnate a virgin (which was physically impossible in that day and age), to give birth to himself, to kill himself, to satisfy himself, for something that he pretty much started. That and he demands your praise all the damn time. Pretty egotistical of him, isn't it?

What do you mean by "we" have disproven? It has not been disproven. The Bible isn't what God relies on. The Bible is His plan, promises, and word.

You know what happen? God wanted to do something to show off his power and creativity. Why? Because he is a show off no doubt about it, but not in that bad way. Its more like what Whoosh said.

These "why" questions are very sensitive because nobody truly knows the true thoughts and plans of God and we are in no place to ask why because he gives us so much whether you notice it or not. Here I go though, I am human I am not perfect and I am not always on the dot, here it goes.

God created man at his image, how he wanted. He gave them beautiful land to rule over and live from. And he was satisfied. Kind of how in forge you try to build something perfect and fun for people to enjoy and you get the credit for it. <<<aha Anyways, God placed a tree of knowledge of good and evil that was forbidden within this place. Exactly what did he put it there for, nobody truly knows. I happen to think that he was going to use it for a greater purpose later on. If man ate from the tree God promised that he would become mortal. That is what is meant by "you will for sure die". Now why on earth would you want to leave your immortality and become mortal???? i do not know. So devil happen to come along and ruin God's master piece. Now check this out, God told the snake(Devil) That he will eat dirt for eternity. WE were made from dirt, it says so in the bible. So that means the devil feeds on us. It's his pleasure to grow the number of people that will accompany him to hell. So why doesn't God just stop it? He is. He created a plan, a hard to believe and to understand plan. Why a plan? Because He is not one to take back what he says nor what he does. So created man and the devil so he will not permanently wipe them out, he will just punish them for being ungrateful. It's pretty much like saying, "Wow, really? You don't like what I have to offer? You prefer hell? Fine be my guest, as I promised there is two choices." So God tried so hard to keep his people pure throughout time, and time and time again, man rejected them and that is what sped up their physical death. Their is just so many bumps on the road that need to be removed or fixed. So now the great controversy, Christ, Jesus.

You mentioned impregnate a virgin. See God had the best plan to counter the condemnation of man. Before Christ, if you were not a Jew, nor were you pure for God, you would not enter his kingdom. I think Spartan can back me up on that. God really is another name for the Trinity, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one that moves amongst us currently and that did so before man was created. The Son, Jesus, was the one who felt allot closer to us and wanted to do this sacrifice for us. Jehovah, or the one that we reffer to as the God, or Father, is the one who is in heaven and stays there, watches over us, plans things, and orders things. He gave us to be Jesus' Kingdom just how he has the angels as his. Now, back on topic, Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice for all man kind. Born from an untouched woman, and sinless his whole life. Man needed to somehow fall under the Grace of God, but at this point it was impossible. So Jesus made it possible. Walk amongst us like a true man. Had a regular child hood. Shared the scriptures. Was tempted like us. He even cried like us and slept like us. He made it so simple, all you have to do is believe in him to be saved. Now what is Believing really? It's the power behind the promise you make that you know he is God, Lord and Savior. You show it by following in Jesus' footsteps, trying to not sin as much as possible, and caring for others. Making our selfs minimal. He knows that we are weak and that we fail and fall but that doesn't stop His love, mercy and grace for us. He is there for you constantly even when you do not see him, nor feel him. No matter how evil you may be, in the end if you turn to him with a repented heart, his arms are open. That is a promise. I experienced the change first hand. In fact I still can't believe how much better my life got. It's very stable and I do not have to worry about getting shot the next day anymore

And no, he does not demand our praise. He doesn't need it He has millions of angels and heaven that do it already. The reason behind our praise is appreciation for who he is and what he does. It is also the way that he moves and conducts miracles.

But anyway, you're forgetting that we really don't know all that much about God. The Bible is nice for people who can't think for themselves, but it's way more opinion than fact sometimes, I will give you that much. The way I see it, God is like a guy who's suddenly been given more power than he's used to: he does some crazy stuff with it, just because he can. If things don't work out, then he starts over. It makes sense to me, because I could see myself doing the same thing in His position. Not sure if that helps out anyone else, because no one else is as crazy as I am.

I like your analogy all though its an unstable comparison it's mostly right. Though he does crazy things only in our minds. Just wait until he reveal the mysteries behind them to us