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  1. #21

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Soap View Post
    I think this is a great idea, but I'm more for 2 weeks as opposed to three (7 days might not be a lot but 21 is over half a month lol). I did actually quote your Skype message about this in the WC meeting but it may have been overlooked. However, this is a solution worthy of discussion, especially given the recent update. Thanks for putting the thread together, Nervy.
    I like the idea this thread presents, and also agree 3 weeks may be a little to much. Because not many people were around for the war that lasted over a year. Might I add it also lasted over a year with the 1 week system.

  2. #22

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    No, it's a way of saying, "let's not fix what isn't broken." That assumes that our event schedule isn't broken, of course, but that's the argument he's making.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
    Incorrect. I'm saying the schedule of having Battlenight every week is both stressful and stale. My solution is intended to alleviate stress while adding fresh variety. Clearly this is a problem, as evidenced by the stress-induced meltdowns that happen all the time. This is a fix for that.

    So no that's not the argument. It's not superficial like that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythonian View Post
    I'd need to see a detailed breakdown of what these lore events would actually be. They'd need to be thought-out well enough and of a scale that makes people interested in attending, as it'd be acting as an alternative to the Battle Night. It would also need to complement and interact with the wars in a meaningful way that's directly influenced by the members that attend.

    I'm not outright opposed to something along these lines. I'm at the point where any pretenses and notions of "this shouldn't be changed" are being reconsidered, so I won't throw anything out without fully considering it.

    Depending on the minutiae, this has potential benefits which could be worthwhile to pursue. The big hurdle for it to overcome would be offering an experience of a scale comparable to Battle Nights.

    Also, as a few others have said, "bye weeks" seem unnecessary. Simply alternating BN/Lore weeks would most likely be plenty, at least during testing of the idea. If we end up having regular tournaments/events/contests, we could add in bye weeks for them on an as-needed basis.

    EDIT: Should also say that I think this concept would fit best if used alongside other fixes. Stand-alone, this would have minimal effects. Combined with other changes in certain areas, the potential can be brought out more.
    I don't have lore based events in mind currently. I have some ideas, but I would like to talk with the current War Council to brainstorm and talk with vets if that's possible. I want the lore event to capture the lore of the community in the purest form.

    I still believe it should be 3 weeks because of the potential that the "bye-week" could have in terms of community events. Lots disagree and that's fine, but I still feel it should be 3 weeks...

    I think this solution has more potential than you say in your edit, but combining changes with this change can bring it to its full potential anyway so it's a moot argument on my part

    Quote Originally Posted by VerbotenDonkey View Post
    If the battle nights aren't working, then having them every week or every other week wouldn't matter, people would STILL not be looking forward to them and the result would be the same. So it obviously isn't that it's every week and more in line with how the battles are performing. It isn't that people are overwhelmed with playing every week, it's more of the fact that there isn't anything to look forward to.

    Also once forge releases, I'm more than willing to rework the LARP as long as there is still interest and the forge maps are actually good.
    I disagree. I've noticed with the non-stop work and time I've done for the past year and a half for FC, I can say without a doubt that most of the issues that arise each Battlenight are stress related. Targeting that stress directly will reduce frustration which would cause FC to have a much more beneficial environment. Remove the stress, remove most of the frustration.

    This also gives a 2 week period if there is a botched Battlenight which I doubt would happen to the levels we have now. Nonetheless, it would be easier to find solutions with more time anyway so it's a double whammy there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    What if we could rebuild the "Lore" to be an actual function of our events? By that I mean, we take the results of battles, the state of the warmap, and the existing army units, and have a weekly publication that details these things in story form? Didn't Myth start that once? The newspaper reporter Jonathan Craig?

    If we continue to look at Lore as an optional and separate deal from battles, then it's never going to mean anything. If we can't present a cohesive story that actually has something to do with the battles we fight, then Lore will never be a factor that helps distinguish us from other communities.

    This solution intended to give people more time which leads to less stress as well as provide the variety to keep this place fresh. What you're proposing is what I've attempted to do which is shoehorn variety into an already severely limiting frame of time... This would cause more problems not less...

    Lore isn't separate and optional nor did I say that. It's very much a part of the warsim as Battlenight is. The lore and Battlenight are NOT the same thing. Battlenight is a competitive event, lore isn't competitive, it's role-play. Very different...

    I would like to see the lore-based week have an effect on the warmap also which makes it meaningful. It would have to be done in a way that is fun while creating a little tension with the WARMAP on the line

    Please do not add more stuff into this limiting frame of time. It won't work and will be a waste of time. My Administration and I drew up an entire "Renegade Games" weekly event to try to add variety. That on top of Battlenight was waaaay too much to even manage let alone expect enlisted to show up to all that and Battlenight. Give people some more time fpr role-play, it's not unreasonable....
    Last edited by NervyDestroyer; 12-08-2015 at 11:19 PM.
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  3. #23

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Made a few edits to the original post
    "Gamers always believe that an epic win is possible and that it's always worth trying, and trying now."













  4. #24
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    One other thing that I think is worth mentioning is the logic behind how distributing activity reduces stress.

    I'm not entirely convinced that having a battle night every two weeks is any less stressful than a battle night every week. Nervy, if you have some sort of example of how delaying a stressful event makes it less stressful I could use some elaboration. I'm not really following the logic of how less frequent battle nights makes the battle nights less stressful.

    I'm looking at this from the perspective that if I have a homework assignment due every week vs. a homework assignment due every two weeks. The frequency of the homework assignments doesn't really impact the stress. If anything, I simply have a week of no stress when I don't have to deal with the assignment followed by a week of stress as usual.

    I primarily like this plan because it means I don't have to worry about showing up every week for battle nights especially since my schedule is in general super busy. I don't really see how the stress is reduced by waiting a few more days between the battle nights.

  5. #25
    Senior Citizen VerbotenDonkey's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    I'm not entirely convinced that having a battle night every two weeks is any less stressful than a battle night every week. Nervy, if you have some sort of example of how delaying a stressful event makes it less stressful I could use some elaboration. I'm not really following the logic of how less frequent battle nights makes the battle nights less stressful.
    This. If anything, the Thanksgiving break actually made me lose focus from FC because it was too much time away from it and it was boring. xD
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  6. #26

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    While I think focusing on BN like it's FC's only thing to do is bad, I don't really agree with the system. Regardless of its original or true purpose, it seems like trying to promote activity by promoting and accommodating laziness. Which is counter-intuitive. I also think many of these problems stem from political issues and general inactivity, and that this new system would be used to distract new and current members from the issues at hand that need addressing.

    I think an easier and less resource-demanding solution is to make squads work better. It seems like most of the real complaints about BN are from squads who do not perform well and lack real team comp, and are rightly so frustrated.

    Play games together.
    Doesn't really matter if they're FC maps or gametypes, at least not yet. Pick a date, commit to it. Nobody was ever just handed a reward for existing. You have to work for your goals. Even if that goal is to play better or spank another group at a game.

    Same strategy of playing together will even cause you to form better strategies. It'll improve your communication skills with one another. Your own skill will improve simply because of use. Improve together and you'll learn about how well your comp is.

    Good squads are good because they work hard at it. Making a system like this also doesn't make their schedules change. Every BN, they're going to be just as awesome and unstoppable as they are now. In fact, you're really just giving them more time to prepare.

    tl;dr Making even a small commitment to improving yourself will have a huge impact on your gameplay and the gameplay of those around you. It'll make BN funner because you can't wait to trash the other team, because you've been practicing. A little competitiveness never killed anyone.

    Except gladiators. Competition between gladiators typically resulted in gory megadeath.
    ...Good thing we aren't gladiators, right?

  7. #27
    Useless without Toast Jam Cliché's Avatar
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    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by NervyDestroyer View Post
    Incorrect.
    The fuck? I wasn't speaking for you, I was speaking for Verboten. How are you gonna tell me if I'm correct or incorrect in my interpretation of something you didn't say?

    Clearly this is a problem, as evidenced by the stress-induced meltdowns that happen all the time.

    ...

    I disagree. I've noticed with the non-stop work and time I've done for the past year and a half for FC, I can say without a doubt that most of the issues that arise each Battlenight are stress related. Targeting that stress directly will reduce frustration which would cause FC to have a much more beneficial environment. Remove the stress, remove most of the frustration.
    You're suggesting that the schedule of battles is the only factor that contributes to the community frustration? What about unfair levels of challenge, lack of rewards, communication barriers between fellow members and leaders, diminished variety of experience, malcontent with peers, and outside stressors?

    You can have periods of "no time!" or "all the time in the world!", but your experiences or lack of experiences within those periods are what will or won't cause stress. And who is having the meltdowns here? If you have allowed FC to have such extreme effect on you that you will suffer any form of mental collapse or feeling of loss of control, please seek help immediately. "Real Life First" has always been one of FC's most common tenants, and we encourage all of our members to take time off when commitment to the community interferes with responsibilities elsewhere.

    What you're proposing is what I've attempted to do which is shoehorn variety into an already severely limiting frame of time... This would cause more problems not less...
    Eh? I didn't make any proposal that dealt with stretching the current FC schedule any thinner. I said that our existing pool of official events should themselves be what shape the FC Lore. The only thing close to concrete that I made in that post you're quoting was to bring back the Jonathan Craig publications, and only one person was needed to publish those.

    Lore isn't separate and optional nor did I say that. It's very much a part of the warsim as Battlenight is. The lore and Battlenight are NOT the same thing. Battlenight is a competitive event, lore isn't competitive, it's role-play. Very different...
    You're stating an opinion as fact here, and I disagree with that opinion - I don't think Lore is strictly role-play. Take for instance the format of some of the wars of yesteryear, in older titles like Halo 3 and Reach. Attack plans were not divvied up into a pair of movements. Entire regiments of troops were moved from map to map, ultimately converging on the locations that would be played each battle, and the results formed a narrative that played out over the course of the war. Lore was and can still easily be an intrinsic part of our events.

    I would like to see the lore-based week have an effect on the warmap also which makes it meaningful. It would have to be done in a way that is fun while creating a little tension with the WARMAP on the line
    Even if this suggestion actually had some substance in it, why put up a week of downtime between two alternating events like that? How bored do you want me to be that you would limit me to playing FC-style Halo on only one night each month?

    Please do not add more stuff into this limiting frame of time.
    I'm not adding stuff, you're adding stuff. You put words in my mouth in nearly every post of mine you've quoted, and I don't appreciate that. You make it look like we're arguing over certain ideas that I did not present or support, and that's extremely self-serving.


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  8. #28

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Demon Lee View Post
    While I think focusing on BN like it's FC's only thing to do is bad, I don't really agree with the system. Regardless of its original or true purpose, it seems like trying to promote activity by promoting and accommodating laziness. Which is counter-intuitive. I also think many of these problems stem from political issues and general inactivity, and that this new system would be used to distract new and current members from the issues at hand that need addressing.

    I think an easier and less resource-demanding solution is to make squads work better. It seems like most of the real complaints about BN are from squads who do not perform well and lack real team comp, and are rightly so frustrated.

    Play games together.
    Doesn't really matter if they're FC maps or gametypes, at least not yet. Pick a date, commit to it. Nobody was ever just handed a reward for existing. You have to work for your goals. Even if that goal is to play better or spank another group at a game.

    Same strategy of playing together will even cause you to form better strategies. It'll improve your communication skills with one another. Your own skill will improve simply because of use. Improve together and you'll learn about how well your comp is.

    Good squads are good because they work hard at it. Making a system like this also doesn't make their schedules change. Every BN, they're going to be just as awesome and unstoppable as they are now. In fact, you're really just giving them more time to prepare.

    tl;dr Making even a small commitment to improving yourself will have a huge impact on your gameplay and the gameplay of those around you. It'll make BN funner because you can't wait to trash the other team, because you've been practicing. A little competitiveness never killed anyone.

    Except gladiators. Competition between gladiators typically resulted in gory megadeath.
    ...Good thing we aren't gladiators, right?
    I agree with this post. No one even turned up to practice last night, in fact I'm not sure if we even have a dedicated weekly team practice night anymore.

    I really enjoyed the battle nights on Halo 4. If we need to try and change things, I'm all for changing the frequency of battle nights, however I would suggest 1 every 3 weeks is too infrequent.

    Look, why don't Redd army put together their own super squad to fight "that pesky Blue one"? Without naming names, we have some high skilled players too. It could be a temporary squad if necessary, put them together to fight vbd then they could go back to regular squads for the rest of the war. If vbd are unbeatable by a mixed skill squad (which seems to be the case) then perhaps battle nights need a separate one off game for the uber squads?

    My problem is: I don't like losing, no one does. But as someone mentioned, even games where you end up losing can be super fun and hard fought. What I find less agreeable is waiting around, when I'm unsure if there's even going to be another battle andr if my presence is still required. Remember that in the UK, were up at 12-1 in the morning at this point and some of us have to be up for work the next day. I would like to underline that I don't mind doing it if we are actually waiting for another game, but otherwise it's slightly annoying.

  9. #29

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by tron View Post
    I agree with this post. No one even turned up to practice last night, in fact I'm not sure if we even have a dedicated weekly team practice night anymore.

    I really enjoyed the battle nights on Halo 4. If we need to try and change things, I'm all for changing the frequency of battle nights, however I would suggest 1 every 3 weeks is too infrequent.

    Look, why don't Redd army put together their own super squad to fight "that pesky Blue one"? Without naming names, we have some high skilled players too. It could be a temporary squad if necessary, put them together to fight vbd then they could go back to regular squads for the rest of the war. If vbd are unbeatable by a mixed skill squad (which seems to be the case) then perhaps battle nights need a separate one off game for the uber squads?

    My problem is: I don't like losing, no one does. But as someone mentioned, even games where you end up losing can be super fun and hard fought. What I find less agreeable is waiting around, when I'm unsure if there's even going to be another battle andr if my presence is still required. Remember that in the UK, were up at 12-1 in the morning at this point and some of us have to be up for work the next day. I would like to underline that I don't mind doing it if we are actually waiting for another game, but otherwise it's slightly annoying.
    In the past there were multiple squads capable of playing/winning against VbD such as Sparta, Legacy, Vanquish, Resistance, etc. but unfortunately competitive squads seem to last a shorter time than casual squads, hence why REDD army is comprised mainly of casual squads at this time.

    I suggest putting an event which is beneficial to FC in between the two battle nights - maybe an optional recruitment event maybe? If we have a scheduled time slot for such an event, it may motivate people to actually play, talk and recruit. I personally would be willing to come to such an event, and I reckon we could get a good 10-20 recruits in one day if we really try as a community.

    Also, I think the intended purpose of a two week slot is to let people cool off from battle night. I've noticed the people that misunderstand the stress of battle nights as of late have infrequent attendance (which isn't a problem, it just might skew your view of the community in it's current state). Yes, I know FC has probably been in worse spots, but I doubt it's had a problem similar to this one, as the current issue doesn't have any solution as of yet.

    However, to reiterate and emphasise, place a beneficial event to the community in between the two battle nights. The pros I can see:
    • Recruits as well as members get a chance to meet and talk with members of another squad.
    • Provides a less competitive side to FC - which recruits might want to see.
    • Brings in a good batch of recruits, which is beneficial in multiple ways.
    • Members have the chance to ask more experienced players about how to get better at Halo (if that's the route we're taking).


    Cons:
    • Possible lack of attendance.
    "Different name, same fate."
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    Damn you barry, being seductive to all those recruits by painting vivid, purdy imagery with your words.

  10. #30

    Re: Changing the Community for the Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
    One other thing that I think is worth mentioning is the logic behind how distributing activity reduces stress.

    I'm not entirely convinced that having a battle night every two weeks is any less stressful than a battle night every week. Nervy, if you have some sort of example of how delaying a stressful event makes it less stressful I could use some elaboration. I'm not really following the logic of how less frequent battle nights makes the battle nights less stressful.

    I'm looking at this from the perspective that if I have a homework assignment due every week vs. a homework assignment due every two weeks. The frequency of the homework assignments doesn't really impact the stress. If anything, I simply have a week of no stress when I don't have to deal with the assignment followed by a week of stress as usual.

    I primarily like this plan because it means I don't have to worry about showing up every week for battle nights especially since my schedule is in general super busy. I don't really see how the stress is reduced by waiting a few more days between the battle nights.
    The issue I see is that a big part of why I think the warsim aspect got sidelined is because everyone here only has 7 days in a week. 1 of those days if for scrims, 1-2 days for practice if you want to stand a chance, and then 1 day for Battlenight plus the 5 days a week you are working or at school which takes up a lot of the time of those days. So about 3.5/7 days is for FC and wait to also stand a chance you need to do Matchmaking with your squad and dedicate time for that. Practice isn't enough so you perhaps dedicate a day to that. so that's 4.5/7 days which you must prepare for Battlenight for in order to compete at the level expected. It's a lot. First war of MCC and the last war of Halo 4 were very demanding from my perspective.

    That's sort of the basis where I can think to target frustrations... It doesn't fix everything, it's targeted toward some negatives I see going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Demon Lee View Post
    While I think focusing on BN like it's FC's only thing to do is bad, I don't really agree with the system. Regardless of its original or true purpose, it seems like trying to promote activity by promoting and accommodating laziness. Which is counter-intuitive. I also think many of these problems stem from political issues and general inactivity, and that this new system would be used to distract new and current members from the issues at hand that need addressing.

    I think an easier and less resource-demanding solution is to make squads work better. It seems like most of the real complaints about BN are from squads who do not perform well and lack real team comp, and are rightly so frustrated.

    Play games together.
    Doesn't really matter if they're FC maps or gametypes, at least not yet. Pick a date, commit to it. Nobody was ever just handed a reward for existing. You have to work for your goals. Even if that goal is to play better or spank another group at a game.

    Same strategy of playing together will even cause you to form better strategies. It'll improve your communication skills with one another. Your own skill will improve simply because of use. Improve together and you'll learn about how well your comp is.

    Good squads are good because they work hard at it. Making a system like this also doesn't make their schedules change. Every BN, they're going to be just as awesome and unstoppable as they are now. In fact, you're really just giving them more time to prepare.

    tl;dr Making even a small commitment to improving yourself will have a huge impact on your gameplay and the gameplay of those around you. It'll make BN funner because you can't wait to trash the other team, because you've been practicing. A little competitiveness never killed anyone.

    Except gladiators. Competition between gladiators typically resulted in gory megadeath.
    ...Good thing we aren't gladiators, right?
    Don't understand how it encourages laziness, there's still shit going on, just not all the time... That's not laziness, laziness is refusing to do anything which if a leader is being lazy they usually fail. This doesn't change that.

    I agree that you must practice and play together to get better, but that's not like an overnight thing. I wish to give people a chance come Battlenight. I want squads to practice and play together more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jam Cliché View Post
    The fuck? I wasn't speaking for you, I was speaking for Verboten. How are you gonna tell me if I'm correct or incorrect in my interpretation of something you didn't say?


    You're suggesting that the schedule of battles is the only factor that contributes to the community frustration? What about unfair levels of challenge, lack of rewards, communication barriers between fellow members and leaders, diminished variety of experience, malcontent with peers, and outside stressors?

    You can have periods of "no time!" or "all the time in the world!", but your experiences or lack of experiences within those periods are what will or won't cause stress. And who is having the meltdowns here? If you have allowed FC to have such extreme effect on you that you will suffer any form of mental collapse or feeling of loss of control, please seek help immediately. "Real Life First" has always been one of FC's most common tenants, and we encourage all of our members to take time off when commitment to the community interferes with responsibilities elsewhere.


    Eh? I didn't make any proposal that dealt with stretching the current FC schedule any thinner. I said that our existing pool of official events should themselves be what shape the FC Lore. The only thing close to concrete that I made in that post you're quoting was to bring back the Jonathan Craig publications, and only one person was needed to publish those.


    You're stating an opinion as fact here, and I disagree with that opinion - I don't think Lore is strictly role-play. Take for instance the format of some of the wars of yesteryear, in older titles like Halo 3 and Reach. Attack plans were not divvied up into a pair of movements. Entire regiments of troops were moved from map to map, ultimately converging on the locations that would be played each battle, and the results formed a narrative that played out over the course of the war. Lore was and can still easily be an intrinsic part of our events.


    Even if this suggestion actually had some substance in it, why put up a week of downtime between two alternating events like that? How bored do you want me to be that you would limit me to playing FC-style Halo on only one night each month?


    I'm not adding stuff, you're adding stuff. You put words in my mouth in nearly every post of mine you've quoted, and I don't appreciate that. You make it look like we're arguing over certain ideas that I did not present or support, and that's extremely self-serving.
    I thought you were making an assumption about what I said? I don't know why you had to get all fired up and ragey about it when you could have said that without treating me like shit...

    The unfair levels of challenge can't be fixed successfully without removing people, this solution adds the variety you were talking about. Reviving the warsim will hopefully bring the concepts FC was founded on with army play back. I think I see where you're coming from with lack of rewards though and maybe some individual based achievements for Battlenight and the warsim. Whether or not this solution is accepted, those should still be a thing regardless. Communication barriers I don't particularly see? Could you elaborate? Malcontent would ideally be reduced by lowering stress levels. Outside stressors can never be solved with a simple solution, they are always different and will always be here regardless of whatever solution is made. You're definitely correct there and I see your point. I'm sorry I didn't mean to be that suggestive because you're right, it's not the only problem, but I do believe it's a problem regardless.

    You're absolutely right here, it won't magically fix a bad experience on Battlenight or even if there's a bad experience during the warsim week no matter how much time is given. I'm trying to increase the bullshit tolerance by reducing stress which would ideally reduce the radioactive meltdowns that happen and the angry mini-rants. Hopefully with the reduced stress, everyone will stop blaming each other all the time and actually start working toward even more productive solutions. I wouldn't want people to get overly stressed and see the hospital like you said which is why I want to make a more productive environment to avoid that.

    I may have misunderstood what you were saying and for that I apologize. I get why you would be mad, but it was honestly just a bad interpretation...

    That's fair, maybe I shouldn't have forced that so brashly. I feel that Battlenight and the warsim have grown apart which I'm upset at. I want it back and this is the best method I can think of that would have it come back more meaningfully. Maybe it will leak over into the wars, maybe it won't either way, I want it back meaningfully which can't be done with Battlenight currently that would transition smoothly... That was a badly worded comment on my part and I redact it because you're correct...

    Why are you saying my suggestion had no substance? Did I not provide clear reasoning for everything I put? That was pretty out there and just simply not true. It has a lot of substance you just disagree with it which is fine... Battlenight is stressful and there's no variety, same shit every week. That's gets stale and old. I want to change up the way events are scheduled as a ways to bring back the warsim that made FC special for a lot of people, reduce the stress of Battlenight by not having it all the time, and allow for squads to gain more chemistry with each other in a more robust way. This allows flexibility for that to happen.

    Again, the result of the misinterpretation. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or be opportunistic. It was literally just a misinterpretation which is a mistake on my part... I'll read back through your comment with that in mind and make an edit on this post...
    Last edited by NervyDestroyer; 12-09-2015 at 01:32 PM.
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